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Clarification

April 16, 2016, 1:57 pm
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Corboy:

I wish to make it clear that in my previous post (April 15, 2016)
I quoted another person's description, of combining ayahuasca with another harsh drug, namely nicotine. This discussion took place on a website, entitled "Doubtful News".

(Corboy has never used nicotine, nor entheogens, and has no plans ever to do so.)

The URL to the Doubtful News article was in small print and difficult to
find.

Here is the original article.

In
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http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/02/young-canadian-dies-from-tea-treatment-in-peru/
, this other person who is not "Corboy" person used the computer handle "DJ".


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http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,131244,page=20

One person who participated in the discussion following the article did give
some information based on his own experimentation.

Young Canadian dies after tea treatment in Peru
February 5, 2015

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DJ
February 8, 2015 at 9:00 AM
Having drank both tobacco and ayahuasca in Peru I perhaps could shed some light.
It’s true that in most places people tend to drink tobacco a couple days before the first ayahuasca ceremony in order to “cleanse ” the body.
I drank the tobacco with a few other guys and was pretty ill. I noticed it increased my heart rate significantly and became very hot.so perhaps the poor lady in question had some underlying undiagnosed issue.
One lady who drank it with us had a violent reaction to it which scared the hell out of everybody . The best way I could describe her reaction was that of an epileptic when in the throws of seizure.
I think I remember reading somewhere that anything up to around 20% tobacco is reasonably ok but more than this can cause serious problems.
May God rest her soul.

More Google citations about the death of Jennifer Logan in Peru.
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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

April 16, 2016, 2:35 pm
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Its the same chemistry, whether a plant or pure chemical.

April 16, 2016, 2:55 pm
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Nicotine is nicotine, whether it is in powdered form in a laboratory bottle, or concentrated in a plant.

If someone believes nicotine in a ritual herb is less hazardous than nicotine that is USDA pharmacy grade, that belief has a name - Vitalism.

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the theory that the origin and phenomena of life are dependent on a force or principle distinct from purely chemical or physical forces.

Nicotine Hydrochloride

The chemistry is the same, whether a substance is 100% pure, from a laboratory shelf, or in a variety of herbs, some of which make tea, others of which have been genetically modified and turned into cash crops, such as the tobacco plant.

Soo..Ayahuasca itself has hazards, but so do other plants that might be used to
prepare subjects to receive ayahuasca.

A lot depends on a person's body weight and general state of health - cardiac health, ability of that person's liver and kidney's to metabolize and excrete
toxic materials in an efficient manner.

* If you are going to expose yourself knowingly to powerful substances you have no familiarity with, consider a full medical check up that includes the values that measure kidney and liver efficiency.

Some persons may have a problem they know nothing about. The liver and kidneys are non complaining organs. They do not make you feel sick until most of their efficiency is compromised. By then you have few medical options.

Illustration

Corboy picked up a hepatitis A infection (the food poisoning kind). I never did feel sick and am now immune. But if I had exposed myself to a dose of nicotine tea or taken ayahuasca during my nonsymptomatic Hep A infection, my liver could've been killed and my trip been an utter disaster, had I survived.

Had I been a worker in a nail salon with all its toxic chemicals, it would have been just as hazardous. Luckily I had no jobs entailing food preparation.

Chemicals are chemicals, no matter what their source.

Moral of the Story

* Persons offering these plants had better test the chemical levels in those brews and study up on the pharmacology of the active ingredients. How many milligrams of nicotine is in one unit of herbal tea, eh? What if it equals 50 cigarettes and one of your subjects unknowingly has a low grade Hep A infection?

* What if your subject is taking a malaria prevention drug? Do ayahuasca providers check on possible drug interactions?
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Un-Examined biases and Expectations

April 16, 2016, 3:54 pm
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A Buddhist monk examines how Westerners filtered their encounter with the various Buddhisms through their un examined Romantic Idealism.

Buddhist Romanticism -Thanassaro Bhikku.

Buddhist Romanticism
Western Romanticism puts the emphasis on the individual, and individual fulfullment through self expression

Bhikku, confines this examination to the Western encounter with the Buddhisms.

Corboy suggests pondering the implications of applying the Western Romantic approach to seeking authenticity and self fulfillment from native american sources. Sources which are boundaried, and these boundaries violated by self fulfillment seekers who believe sincerity gives them a free pass.

What if a person mistakes warm fuzzy feelings for 'sincerity' and 'good intentions.?

What if the original custodians had and have a world view somewhat different, perhaps very different from that of western self fulfillment?

Some things may not be transferable across cultures.

And.. err...the seeker/global nomad culture, a culture possibly rooted in Western
European Romanticism, may be less innovative than its denizens believe it to be.

Let us examine a few points. Here are some hunches. Let us examine them.

Western Romanticism does not stabilize traditional societies, nor does it change those societies in slow and manageable ways.

Western Romanticism has destabilized traditional societies and, combined with capitalism, has done so rapidly. The most recent spin off from Western Romanticism was the hippie popularization of psychedelics.

Invasions by drug seeking hippies and money hungry opportunists has disrupted the cultures which had custody of ayahuasca, peyote etc.

Without the technology which created accessible forms of air travel to distant places, fewer hippies and psychedelicists would have reached Asia and North Africa.

And because of affordable automobiles and gasoline, this technology enabled large number of experience hungry seekers to reach territories in North and South America and invade the homelands of those who had custody of healing plants.

Western Romanticism was a big impetus to the revolutions - America, France, Haiti, the Central American countries.

Revolutions disrupt the traditional societies. When romanticism combines with capitalism, traditional art, cultural patterns are ruined by creating tourist industries, whether large scale (cruise ships that contaminate the ocean)
and tourist invasions of people's home lives in the quest for authenticity.

What if the lived experience of the original custodians and users of ayahausca had and have a world view and self/other view that differs from that of the seeker who is Western Romantic

Corboy suggests that a danger in the Western Romantic notion of self development self fulfillment is that on our way to overcome isolation and estrangement,
we might, to get special experiences, regard massage methods, dance methods, chant methods and psychedelic plants on an instrumental basis -- regard and use them as tools--that Plant X is here for my benefit.

And that a Western Romantic might continue to see ayahuasca as existing for his or her fulfillment,of the original custodians, despite all the exalted chatter about 'spirits".

If you actually believe in spirits, has it occurred to you that such spirits might not exist for your benefit?

Perhaps, just perhaps the original custodians of ayahuasca have a world view quite different from Western Romanticism? What if a member of ayahuasca's custodial peoples has a different experience of self and other -- one that might not even be self and other?
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Re: BBC article - some information about Bhutan

April 16, 2016, 5:48 pm
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corboy Wrote:
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> BBC -"(Bhutan) is one of the world's poorest
> nations."
>
> >
>
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Bhutan measures quality of life by Gross
> National Happiness (GNH) rather than Gross
> Domestic Product (GDP), striking a balance, the
> government says, between material and mental well
> being.
>
> The rating is looked after from the Gross
> National Happiness Centre, run by a man who knows
> his fair share of the opposite too.
>
> Many Bhutanese are famously satisfied with their
> lives.
>
> But even the prime minister has suggested the
> concept is overused, and masks problems with
> corruption and low standards of living. Nearly 7%
> of young people are unemployed and it is one of
> the world's poorest nations, in GDP terms
>
>
>
>
>
>
Quote

But not everyone is happy
> The country has not been idyllic for everyone.
> Slavery was only abolished in 1958 .

The Gross National Happiness measure overlooks some very serious ills. Domestic violence is rampant in Bhutan, with many women reporting that they deserve to be beaten by their husbands if they burn the dinner while cooking, or commit other small transgressions.

[www.huffingtonpost.com]

Also, it was revealed a few years ago that sexually-transmitted diseases were common among monks, including child-monks. 12-year-old monks were found to have herpes and other STD's. [Child rape is common in Buddhist monasteries all over Asia.] Teen and young-adult monks, it was discovered, seek out psychiatric care for depression and other mental health concerns.

Any measure of Gross National Happiness that overlooks such serious matters can't be taken seriously. However, to Bhutan's credit, at least it's practicing a level of transparency is going public with these issues, and is seeking solutions. The same can't be said of the Dalai Lama's administration, or the governments of Nepal, India or China in Tibet.
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Re: Travel Hazards and Issues India Nepal Bhutan

April 16, 2016, 6:24 pm
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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

April 16, 2016, 8:01 pm
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Lets not compare Wai Lana to Yoko ONO ...
I knew Yoko Ono ...I lived on John and Yoko estates in 1969 for a few months.
Yoko was the daughter of a rich banker ...japanese aristocracy
a very intelligent lady that use to challenge the belief of swami Bhaktivedanta
i was there when she use to argue with him about the lower intelligence of woman
she gave Bhaktivedanta plenty of good arguments to the contrary ,
She and John where into each other ..they loved each other
Yoko would have never accepted that anyone worship her .
What a freaking bitch this Wai Lana ...Rama as already told us what he witness ...people flat on the floor...paying respect to Wai Lana ...and the little lady just walking ...accepting the worship
Yoko would have never serve the nail clipping of John Lennon to his fans
Yoko and John had a well paid staff ...not quasi slaves brainwash
followers thinking they will go to heaven if they serve Wai Lana as the consort of the GOD MAN ...
Yoko is very very nice compare to Wai lana
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Re: Hare Krishna sects not related to Chris Butler/SOI

April 16, 2016, 8:32 pm
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Very interesting read, Ian. This is the kind of info needed to be on this board. Not many followers understand just how flawed the foundations of their beliefs are. It is usually the young and the sentimentalists who are simply enamored by exotic belief systems and cultures, but we all grow up and learn from our mistakes. The fact is, foreign religions are no different or even more flawed than our Judeo-Christian tradition; all ancient civilizations are. It turns out there no exception. It's just that our deep-seeded need to believe in something is so strong, believers will choose to live in denial instead. The same politics, social manipulation and power structure that are propping up the elite few to rule over the masses now are the same in the ancient times – from the Egyptians to the Brahmins, and religion has always been the most effective tool.

I understand during the 60s it was cool to belong to a group and to have a guru and how even cooler it is to be the guru. It was the age of discovery and curiosity. But so many things were wrong then and people have moved on and helped fine tune the social fabric we all are contributors to, but sadly, there are still leftovers that are thriving.

There is a cottage industry of ex-members out there exposing these flaws regarding the theology of Krishna religion and it is to the cult’s peril to ignore questions, facts and accounts ex-members are finding out, because whether you like it or not, any members who have access to the internet will get hold of these knowledge and you’re as fucked as hell, especially when in the process you hurt people along the way.

That said, my next question is how involved the gurus are and how guilty are they? For sure, anyone with an average mental faculty get it, including gurus. No matter how involved they are in the 60s, at one point in their lives they will question their own faith and dig facts up. Jagad Screwball at one point has had doubts about the legend of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or Krishna himself. If not, he is not worthy to be a teacher, let alone be worshiped as pure spiritual man. His theology and personality are so screwed up and that does not help his racket. Now that we are living in this age of information and can definitively dig up the truth and see clearly from the vantage point that there really is no truth to any ancient theologies, how long further these lies could go on?

I contribute to this board with the hope that knowledge alone could solve society’s problems with religious cults. The more knowledgeable people become the smaller the box of superstition is shrunk to until it gets erased totally. It’s insane that we live in the age that is unique and unprecedented, much like it was during the Renaissance and there are still children out there who are denied of their true potentials and voices.
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 16, 2016, 8:45 pm
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It appears that New Haven/Sacred Way Lodge has deleted from their calendar the ayahuasca retreat they had held in January and there are no earth based ceremonies listed on the calendar for the remaining of the year (???)
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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

April 16, 2016, 9:11 pm
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Very true, Dabs..

Wai Lana is in a class(less) by herself.

Butler was crazy all along- Wai Lana merely fanned the flames to get what SHE wanted.
Its a "birds of a feather" kind of thing.
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 7:47 am
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Someone left this message under my video ...is it truth or not I do not know

Christopher Trinity Guzman has trained with Raven Starre who stole $500.000
dollars from my friends ...and another friend lost $100,000 to Raven.
She took everything they had ...and this right before chrismas too!Their children had no chrismas presents ...no presents no holidays .Nothing left to say !


My search on the internet for Raven Starre shows that she is a scammer
that was involve in the sort of multi levels sales organizations
pressure sales similar to the ones that TNT GUZMAN as been involve with other
multi levels organizations
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 8:25 am
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Trinity has acknowledged Raven Starre as a mentor.
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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

April 17, 2016, 8:45 am
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The 3 videos that I have produce ....and that have WAI LANA in the title
have been viewed about 4,000 times ...most have more tums up than tums down .
here is a few of the commentaries that where left under the videos.
members of this forum have tried to tell PBS of the WAI LANA Chris Butler cult connection ...but PBS does not seems to mind ...unfortunate .

"holy shit now after viewing your video about Wai Lana I now see her video NAMASTE from another angle ..I always tough that she had something phoney and artificial when I was looking at her program on PBS

"she as been on public TV with her yoga series for years .So in a sense endorsed
by the gov,tand tax payers .I always thought she had a very strange even a creepy delivery,and yoga style.cults do come in all shapes and forms
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 9:25 am
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Not long after moving to San Diego, Trinity met his first mentor and multimillion-dollar business owner, Raven Starre. Raven is one of the top 10 female network marketers in the world, has interned for several billionaires ...

Raven had been a “follower” of Trinity on Twitter and when she recognized him at an event, she immediately invited him to come and do a live in mentorship; where she would teach him everything she could. In return he would provide Internet marketing services for her business.

- See more at: [www.prreach.com]
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 9:48 am
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From Trinity's Twitter account, 2011:

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TrinitydeGuzman @ravenstarre I love you beyond words can express <3

19 May11

from Twitter Web Client
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 10:24 am
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This is posted on Facebook, April 2016, on the Ayahuasca Healings is NOT legal page. Dylan is Dylan Guss, one of the top three people, he runs support, funds, etc.

Dylan is defensive here, trying to control the narrative, and putting a spin once again on events. This is also an ad for their upcoming retreats.

This is an attempt to manage their brand.


Quote

Hello everyone,
This is Dylan from Ayahuasca Healings. I’ve been following what has been posted in this group for several months and have stayed in contact with Dhammahuasca and my former teammates Anthony, Mike and Kigan as well. I’ve always kept an open mind, was very receptive towards constructive criticism and have therefore put all my efforts into steering things in the right direction and correcting any mistakes that have been made. Everything I write here is my own personal opinion and is therefore not representative of Trinity, Marc, the church in Washington or Ayahuasca Healings.
Now before you judge me as being a ‘Trinity clone’, claim that I am lying or being deceptive in what I’m writing here, I would like to ask Anthony Merra, Michael Turek, McCabe Mccabe Mccabe and Dhamma Huasca, who actually know me to a certain extent, to have a say and be completely honest about how they feel about me personally and my intentions. I’ve been called ‘a swindler, a smug, an arrogant con artist’, ‘a bad person’ and ‘evil’ by certain people in this group. Please, go ahead and try to find ONE person who actually knows me that thinks I’m a bad person or that my intentions are wrong. You can’t. I can sincerely say that I have nothing but the highest intentions for the greatest good of humanity. Intense feelings of pain, anger, sadness and frustration in regard to the corruption, wars, poverty, racism and so on that I saw in the world is what led me to this path. If you don’t believe the words of people who actually know me in regard to who I am or what I stand for, then there’s not much else I can say to change your mind.
Over time I’ve noticed the energy of certain people in this group shift more and more from constructive and valid criticism towards increasing hostility that in my opinion served no one and only added more fuel to the fire. This made me want to leave and ignore it all, instead of listening, reflecting and trying to steer things in the right direction as I have been. There is also a lot of false information going around. I’m here for a constructive and civil discussion and will strive to be as honest and unbiased as possible. Non-constructive attacks or comments will not be answered. As certain information could be considered sensitive or discriminating due to the DEA application process, I may decide not to comment on certain questions. Here’s my story:
I’ve been working for Ayahuasca Healings since December and have been living with Trinity in the sacred valley for a bit over two months. The minimum requested contribution of $997 with a suggestion of $1497-$1997 was the first aspect that raised controversy among certain people who claimed the intentions were to exploit the medicine for money. This was not the case. The model that Trinity had imagined to be the best way of spreading this vision - purchasing or leasing large areas of land and building 30 churches in 15 years - would require enormous amounts of resources. As the church would become more financially stable, the suggested amount for contributions could be dropped considerably. It was not so that Trinity and Marc could purchase large mansions and cars for themselves. Trinity, a housemate and I live together in Pisac in a house that costs $500/month to rent. We're not living luxurious lives at all. The costs of setting up and running the church were severely underestimated and the expenses have in fact exceeded the contributions. A financial sheet of all of the received contributions and expenses has been added to the DEA exemption application and therefore is in hands of the “authorities”. Both Trinity and Marc have invested and lost a considerable amount of money from their own savings.
Before the church was launched, the local prosecutor’s office had been informed of the ceremonial usage of plant medicines. They gave their approval, emphasizing they would not prosecute the founders or members and said that “99 out of a 100 times, you would win a case in court.” Needless to say, the issue of legality turned out to be much more complicated than originally anticipated, after several critical articles surfaced. After continually seeking council from James Mooney and his legal team in regard to this issue, Trinity’s confidence in the constitutional legality remained strong. Critical voices would not hinder him from moving forward with the vision of spreading healing and awakening with the aid of sacred plant medicines.
In February the church received a letter from the DEA that stated they were aware of the ceremonial usage of Ayahuasca. In this letter, the DEA recommended (not requested or demanded) the church to file for an exemption under the RFRA and to stop facilitating ceremonies in the meantime. In order to establish a healthy relationship with the government, our lawyer strongly suggested to follow the DEA’s recommendation and to stop holding retreats for an undefined period of time. This was a difficult decision for us to take and Trinity was in the jungle at the time. After discussing this in a meeting over the phone, everyone agreed it would be the best decision for the safety of us all and so we made the public announcement that we were putting a hiatus on retreats.
This brought forth an even more difficult situation. Members who were expecting to attend a retreat within several days were unexpectedly called and informed of what was happening. While a lot of members were understanding and respectful of the decision, others felt angry and frustrated, rightfully so. Some no longer wanted to attend a retreat and demanded back the money they had contributed. All members had accepted the terms of conditions which stated their contribution would be “a gift without consideration in support of the church’s mission and vision, not an exchange for service”. Despite these terms of conditions, of course it would be the most ethical thing to monetarily compensate those who had lost trust in the church. But there was no money left to do so. As stated earlier, the expenses had exceeded the contributions, which were used as investments. Despite claims of the contrary, neither Marc nor Trinity have profited from members’ contributions. I know for a fact that Marc has lost $5000+ from his own savings which he put into the church's bank account. The only thing we could do at this point was to make sure members would get what they originally had expected: an Ayahuasca healing retreat, whether in Washington, in Peru or in Mexico.
After strongly reflecting on the entire situation we came to several important conclusions. Trinity has recognized that his conquistador-like visions of purchasing 30 large areas of land and building these huge churches and conscious communities was clearly not the most effective way of serving the medicine. We moved forward way too fast and should’ve applied for a DEA exemption before leading Ayahuasca ceremonies in the US. There was ego involved and the reason things turned out this way was because the church was created more from the mind than from the heart, even though the intentions felt right. Trinity admits to having been ungrounded (by nature) and to feeling disconnected from the kind of issues that the average member was going through. He regrets telling them it was a “gift” and sincerely feels bad for the mess that has been created. He felt guided to create a better world by spreading the transformational medicine of Ayahuasca but of course never intended things to turn out this way. He recognizes that it's not his job to 'save the world' either, the world will save itself. I’m sure these are empty words to most but he’s really not the evil monster as some portray him to be, quite the contrary. Perhaps ungrounded and too audacious.
We’re doing everything we possibly can to correct any mistakes and set things straight and personally I’m very content with the way things are heading. All members will be fully reimbursed for money lost to airfare and/or hotels. They can choose to attend an amazing 8 day retreat in Peru which will contain Ayahuasca, San Pedro, Kambo, guided meditation, yoga, breath work, a sound healing journey, a sweat lodge ceremony and a day trip/hike. If they can’t or don’t want to attend a retreat in Peru or wait for a response from the DEA, we will ensure that all people who have sent money to Ayahuasca Healings will be fully compensated.
How we're planning to move forward from here: we’re currently in the process of organizing two beautiful transformational retreats in Pisac. Part of the seats will be filled up by registered members, of course free of additional costs, the rest by other guests wanting to attend a retreat in Peru. Part of this income will be used to rent property in Urubamba which will be turned into a beautiful holistic healing center with a wide range of healing modalities that I'll be leading, logistically speaking, with several amazing people by my side. I feel that it’ll be incredibly heart-centered, I couldn’t do it any other way. The income generated by this center will be used to send any registered members monetary gifts for any inconveniences experienced and of course members who were expecting to attend a retreat in Elbe can also choose to attend an 8 day retreat here. A set monthly amount will go towards Ayahuasca preservation projects and each retreat there will be several seats for people who are extremely financially burdened to attend for free. I’ll be living and working here and will be putting all my energy and love into this center. In two months, after setting everything up for this new healing center in Peru, Trinity will be going offline and taking a long break for deep self-work and reflection.
Of course this is an unfortunate situation that could've been prevented. I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience caused but no one was 'scammed' or 'defrauded'. We're not evil, we're just human beings like you that have made mistakes and are now doing everything we can to correct them. Despite possible ongoing attacks and criticism, I will continue to follow my heart and do what I feel is right. Thanks for reading.
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 10:28 am
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This is from a public conversation on the Ayahuasca Healings is NOT legal Facebook page:


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Dylan Ayahealings: I expect everyone to be fully reimbursed and us being out of the red within several months.

Bruce: Sounds like you need a forensic accountant to assess how so much money has vanished so quickly.
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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

April 17, 2016, 1:58 pm
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Ha! I hear you dabcult!

It just always had that awkward John and yoko feel.
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 3:32 pm
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" The model that Trinity had imagined to be the best way of spreading this vision - purchasing or leasing large areas of land and building 30 churches in 15 years - would require enormous amounts of resources. As the church would become more financially stable, the suggested amount for contributions could be dropped considerably."

This quote just goes to show how delusional this TNT Guzman was ...
and probably is ...he was not even approve by the DEA to be a church ...he had but a few followers..and dreaming of organizing 30 churches ...and buying lands
for 30 churches ...that would cost millions of dollars to buy ...and millions to maintain .....But hey that was in the past now he as a much better understanding
of what to do to spread the gospel of ayahuwaska..
Do you notice that nowhere is anyone connected to this cult will say that Trinity is legally bar from entering the USA ...They scam their clients then ...are they scaming then now ??
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Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

April 17, 2016, 5:06 pm
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When Trinity was banned from USA, the group needed to tell customers right away, but they did not.

Dylan Guss is now acting as the front man for the group. They are taking money from customers now for Peru retreats. Even though they haven't yet dealt with the damage they did in Washington state.

I doubt we have seen the last of Trinity. Unless there has been a power struggle and he has been toppled by Dylan (doubtful) Trinity is still the mastermind.

Trinity himself has not made full amends. Nor has Marc or Franziska.
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