My wife & I have been working for Bernie; phoning & canvassing as well as donating more than we can really afford.
Any time I hear a campaign worker mention Gabbard, I get their email address and send them [www.youtube.com] as well as selected postings from this forum.
I would advise others involved in support of the Sanders campaign to do the same.
Sometimes I wish the culteducation forum were a little more succinct in its tratment of the Gabbards, but that's okay. I'm glad the information is here and available.

What could possibly go wrong? (sarcasm)

It reminds me of the old song:

"And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon God they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
And the words that it was forming

And the sign said,
'The words of the prophets
Are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls.'
And whispered in the sound of silence."

[www.youtube.com]

Here is a crisp, user friendly quotation from Chris Butler's own guru,
Srila Prabhupada -- the guy who taught Butler the guru business.

What Butler's teacher, Srila had to say about democracy.

[www.google.com]

Quote


[harekrishnarevolution.wordpress.com]

(Corboy: Prabhupada accumulated tax exempt wealth thanks to democracies. He n benefited from democracies which allowed him
entry visas, residence visas, protected him while there and granted him something that Prabhupada would not permit in an ideal 'Vedic' kingdom -- free speech
which dissents from the values of the society granting him not just safety but hospitality.)

What is the value of this democracy? All fools and rascals!

Quote

By His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktived?nta Swami Prabhup?da

hiranyakasipu-prahlad

The king’s duty is, as representative of Krishna, to make every citizen Krishna conscious. Then he is doing nice duty. And because the monarchs did not do so – therefore now monarchy is abolished everywhere. So again the monarchs, where there is monarchy, little, at least show of monarchy, just like here in England there is, actually if the monarch becomes Krishna conscious, actually becomes representative of Krishna, then the whole face of the kingdom will change. That is required.

Our Krishna consciousness movement is for that purpose. We don’t very much like this so-called democracy. What is the value of this democracy? All fools and rascals! They vote for another fool and rascal, and he becomes prime minister, or this or that. Just like in so many cases. That is not good for the people. We are not for this so-called democracy because they are not trained. If the king is trained… That was the system of monarchy. Just like Yudhisthira Maharaja or Arjuna or anyone. All the kings. were called r?jarshi.

Raja, king means, he is not only king. He is a great rishi, saintly person, just like Maharaja Yudhisthira or Arjuna. They’re saintly persons. They are not ordinary, like this drunkard king, that “I have got so much money. Let me drink and let there be dancing of the prostitute.” Not like that. They were rishi. Although they were king, they were rishis. That kind of king wanted, r?jarshi.

Then people will be happy.

In Bengali there is a proverb, r?j?ra p?pe r?ja nasta grhin? doshe grhastha bhrashta (?). In grhastha life, in household life, if the wife if the wife is not good, then nobody will be happy in that home. Similarly, in a kingdom, if the king is impious, then everyone will suffer. This is the problem.

[London July 24, 1973 Bg. 1.31]

BBC -"(Bhutan) is one of the world's poorest nations."

[www.bbc.com]

Quote
Bhutan measures quality of life by Gross National Happiness (GNH) rather than Gross Domestic Product (GDP), striking a balance, the government says, between material and mental well being.

The rating is looked after from the Gross National Happiness Centre, run by a man who knows his fair share of the opposite too.

Many Bhutanese are famously satisfied with their lives.

But even the prime minister has suggested the concept is overused, and masks problems with corruption and low standards of living. Nearly 7% of young people are unemployed and it is one of the world's poorest nations, in GDP terms

Quote

Quote

But not everyone is happy
The country has not been idyllic for everyone.
Slavery was only abolished in 1958 and, after a series of policies preferential to the Tibetan-based majority Bhutanese culture, clashes broke out with the minority Nepalese community in 1990.
Tens of thousands of them fled to refugee camps in Nepal and their status is still in dispute. Some of those left behind say they still face discrimination.

Reality Hits Charming Bhutan BBC October 2013

[www.bbc.com]

Bhutan carries a severe debt and desperately needs money.

If Bhutan becomes a tourist hub, beware of cult charlatans and moocher
monks. Ditto for fellow travelers turning themselves into
spiritual mentors and using Bhutan as one item on their
"resumes".

The "4-day personal development retreat in the mountains" Trinity talks about here was a large group awareness training run by the scamster T. Harv Eker in Canada.

Info on these manipulative trainings : [forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Years ago, when I was 18, I realized that the old-fashioned college thing wasn’t for me. I could see that there was something so much greater waiting for me, even though I had no idea what, and deep down inside, I knew that I had to un-enroll from University. So I did, and that decision was the start of my Awakening.

I sought out my teachers, my mentors, who all helped me become who I am today.

One of them, who’s honestly started me on this path of relentless accountability to myself, with an unshakable, unmovable commitment to the service of the planet, held a 4-day personal development retreat in the mountains, and it was $5000.

Being 18, and having just left high school, I didn’t have that money. But I knew I had to be there so badly, that I did everything I could to raise that money. I asked anybody I could; my mom, my dad, my uncle, my close friends, even my employer, and eventually, I raised that money, and I went to that retreat.

It was, and still is, one of the most pivotal moments of my entire life. And I wouldn’t be able to do what I am doing right now, in sharing these words, and bringing Ayahuasca to America, if I didn’t do that for myself.

[web.archive.org]

More on T Harv Eker:

Quote

'Financial freedom' guru's secret psychology to money

The irony of how-to-get-rich programs is that they tend to make the promoters rich rather than the students.

[www.canada.com]

I don't buy the assertion that chaitanya or any modern day krishna cult does not recognize the varna and ashram system as a ideological system. I was in this cult for many years with many gurus. There are hundreds of quotes from swami bhaktivedanta and beyond about the caste system and it's so called benefits etc. Siddhanta saraswati put much emphasis on the brahmans thread as well as positions like Sanyasi and so forth. Dramatic emphasis is put on dress and position in most gaudiya traditions. The butler cult perhaps broke away from this style-oriented preaching, but most, if not all off-shoot maths and missions in the gaudiya line emphasize this heavily.

The biggest issue is not that people believe in this nonsense or that. The issue with most of these groups, specifically in terms of gaudiyas is that their history is very cloudy and undefined. It's an utter mishmash. Emphasis is on modern day acharyas and on so-called chaitanya and the mythological radha krishna. Meanwhile, other deities are worshipped as well: Narasimha (dasavatar), shiva, ganesh, and various demigods, saints and rishis. There is very little in the way of logic that dictates or spells out what is proper or correct in these traditions. A unanimous teaching is simply to follow a "bonafide" guru and chant the so-called holy name(s). The mantras and verses associated with any evidence for any of this are few and far between and the sources questionable and confusing at best.

While traditional gaudiya vaishnavas huddled in forests and around mayapur, puri and vrndavana and had few if any disciples—focusing mainly on their simple practice and belief system, there is much emphasis in modern day movements on worldwide preaching and initiations of thousands of "disciples". Many of which spend no more than a few hours a year with their guru/teacher and basically spend the rest of their "krishna conscious" time "praying" to little pictures/deities on their altars or banging through their "rounds". Even the so-called lineage is questionable and no clear answer exists about who is who and what their contributions were. No one has any clear picture of anything. Once you get to Gaurakishor baba it's pretty much a crapshoot as far as who was who and what is what. There is no logical explanation for basic practices like keeping a sikha, dressing in dhotis/saris, wearing neck beads etc... Other than affiliation to a group—all very worldy and materialistic concerns. Just because you say it's for "god" does not make it any more "special"—it's still someone giving a shit about how they look for the sake of belonging to a "group" and identifying with their body all the same. People have been doing that for millions of years. Tell me something good...

Controversy also abounds in the cult(s). Not only in the time of Bhaktivinode, but going way back there is so many contradicting stories and events that don't add up to a clear picture of the tradition. What to speak of modern day groups/offshoots that are riddled with controversies, internal strife and replete with oddities of the highest order. It's like the catholic church times 10. Major arguments abound about silly things like the origin of the soul (you would think that one would be spelled out early on—seems important enough), what style tilak, sikha, color saffron, guru's preaching styles, sanyassi businessmen, multimillion $$$ temples, properties, document fraud, pedophilia, questionable relations with trusting disciples, the list goes on and on... but as long as you chant—well, it's all good. 16 rounds baby. Ok, maybe 4... as long as you are serving the vaishnavas! And what does that typically consist of? Giving money, cooking food, feeding the devotees, bowing down, cleaning after them, giving them gifts etc. Not giving poor people food, or donating to some social need, building businesses that can maintain the temple for years (rather than having devotees slave at airports and collect money by lying to people that they are engaged in some social welfare). Most of the money is to maintain expensive temples, build more temples and have the guru travel, buy surfboards, boats, cars, more properties etc. I recently had a fellow approach me for doing some design work for a multimillion dollar temple. Millions of dollars are spent on building a structure to house some small group of devotees or in most cases, a statue. A statue that they claim is god. I'm sorry, is god not in your heart and in the holy name? Isn't that what you preach? Yet, millions of $$$ are spent erecting fancy temples to impress outsiders and get more $$$. Many devotees travel to India at least once a year. This is expensive. Why don't they just move there? Because they like their material life and comfort in the west. Even in ISKCON they have built apartments in Vrndavana to sell to old devotees so they can live in nice air-condition rooms and enjoy their western accommodations. Just like the saints of yore!

There is little to no outside records or documentation of chaitanyas life aside from the very fancifully written accounts of the chatanya charitamrita and chaitanya bhagavat/mangal (even Leonardo Da Vinci has more evidence-based documentation of his life and habits). No other works or historical records really point to the existence of such a personality who "made the earth tremble in ecstasy" and so forth. Sure, there are temples that claim to have been visited by chaitanya or have in their possession the lota and slippers he wore, but India abounds in these types of cheap-frills exhibitions. Every other temple in mayapur, puri and vrndavan claim to have some "special" artifact or story associated with it. The evidence for such things is sorely lacking or non existent of fabricated so that the temple priests can get their lak$hmi. I still have not visited one of these places where it didn't feel just slightly off, crooked and shady. They don't even have a clear unified story how chaitanya died? Certainly if the Kaviraj who wrote caritamrita knew the various details of the reformists antics and habits, he would have recorded accurately the cause of death. Gee, even krishna is described as having died from an arrow shot to the foot. Jesus even has a clear death described. It's all hodgepodge.

Overarching evidence is there of the founder of the modern hare krishna movements (Swami Bhaktivedanta) various horrendous statements about women, homosexuals, africans, slavery, dictatorship, war, randomly the moon landing, and so forth. Not to mention countless lectures where varna and ashram are stated as ideal systems of governance that society would do well returning to. Even in their own initiation process the thread and brahminical gayatri is dispensed as a method of becoming "second born" and moving up through the temple ranks. It's a very visible hierarchy. You have your bhakta's, your first initiates, second initiates, sanyasis and babajis and so forth. It's by no means a "we're all equal" approach to life (shoot, i've seen more serious bhaktas than so-called brahmins).

Sure, you're costumery "Namaste" is offered to the bhaktas, but the full dandavat pranams are offered to the "prabhus" and the "maharajas". Most likely because they have been around longer but also because of external status symbols: Brahmin thread, saffron cloth etc. Or is it that they have chanted more rounds (have you ever heard papa chanting tapes of prabhupada? You can't even hear what he's saying. many devotees also just wander about chanting and all you really hear is slur of indistinguishable babble as they band through their ordained rounds)? Or that they distributed more books? Or is it that they have converted more followers or are "experts" in the verses of the gita? Who knows. I mean, it's not so much about that as it is about the garb they wear and what everyone else is doing around you (aka—bowing down).

I guess the fundamental flaw, for me, lays in the lies. Gaudiyas may say that they reject caste systems or that their saints/avatars where somehow "reformers", but yet the stories in the bhagavatam and other vedic works that they believe in, contain very blunt references to these practices. Not to mention animal sacrifices, human sacrifices, belief in silly pagan deities like surya, indra and vayu and outlandish stories of monkey armies, getting loaded on Soma juice, sati-rights, holy wars, marriage of thousands of queens, slaying of gigantic demons and stairways to heaven... My point is, where is the evidence? How can one just outright, without any sense of foolishness and doubt, believe in this stuff and consider themselves sane?

I understand it feels good to tout a philosophy of "servitude", "devotion", "surrender", "dedication" etc. Sure, it sounds noble. But service, surrender, dedication, and love of what? A glorified santa clause tale?

If hinduism is shrouded in so much "mystery" and is "the oldest religion", then certainly it behoves us to study and analyze and try to understand it's origins.

From a barbaric, simple nomadic peoples with beliefs in nature gods, to the development of village deities like krishna during the dawn of agriculture, and through to the systematic development of a complex pantheon (influenced heavily by existing greek, egytian and Aryan gods of the time), and eventual philosophical and ritual-based systems developed to segregate and give clear hierarchy to the social structure. You can trace much of so-called vedic civilization through the recorded histories of the rest of the work during that time period. You can say that the vedic scripture down to the contemporary writings of the gaudiya masters are "revealed" and beyond "senses perception" and "mental interpretations". Here is a fact: Anyone who has a body in this world, is flawed by the limitations of that vehicle (even the gods, great devotees, and god himself show in their tales the flaw of their human encumburment). Think about that for a minute... Ok, minutes up! Think of rama. Even he, who was apparently god—the infallible vishnu incarnate, had to enlist the monkey warriors and hanuman to "help" him... Oh, but he did that because it's his pastime! He did that to engage his devotees in service (which is all they want to do cause they love him ever so much!)... Ok, well, I have to say, that for as huge as the universe is, god sure is human like in his focus on us, his focus on evil, his focus on caring etc... At the same time, he does not seem to give two shits about the catastrophic trauma and drama that is unfolding in the universe and here on little ol' earth... Sure, he apparently killed some kamasa and ravana and hiranyakashipu, but somehow failed to care much about Donald Trump or George Bush or Hitler... Why? Well, cause it's just not time folks... We need to wait some several thousands of years so he can come as "Kalki"! Why? Well, cause it says in the "big book"... What book is that? Is it in one of the 4 major vedas of India? No, no, no.... It's in the puranas... The stories...Ok...Thx god... We'll be here... Suffering and waiting... Have fun in krishna loka with all them gopis! Certainly there is WAY more devotees on earth now, than ever in history. There is way more ardent believers. All of them praying for the "lords mercy", yet, somehow that's not enough to waken the great narayan from his cosmic slumber. And why does he need to sleep so much anyway? Heavy night of drinking soma?

It's not that the the vedas, and pedants and the puranic stories are somehow meaningless or lack value. It's just that they meant more to the indigenous people that developed these beliefs, rather than modern day people. We may culturally lack a connection with nature and tradition and ritual, but certainly adopting the archaic culture of a bygone era is not the answer. We may benefit from taking some examples here and there: Using yoga for stretching, pranayama breath techniques to gain mindful awareness of our bodies, eat a high-veg diet, respect and honor nature and all living things, live a life of gratitude and appreciation and perhaps even study the wisdom and observations of the thinkers and artists of the past. But to wholesale accept everything and fall line-hook-sinker for every ounce of it. I don't know what to say. Good luck? Have fun? Be safe? I feel for you? I dunno. I'm wary of that approach to life. Certainly the great sages and thinkers of the past did not stop at one given point and say "this is it boys! We've reached the end of all there is to know!" No, they explored further, tried to understand it from different angles, disagreed, revised, and eventually agreed on one infinitely correct answer: There ain't one. That's why the hindu faith appeals to so many and just about anyone, from the sex-starved tantra hippie to the ganja smoking shivite can find something there. But the gaudiyas try to paint a view that it is all nonsense and they have the key. This is the general mood of the devotees. At least Shnakara recognized that all these different offshoots where viable and recognizable as people worshipping the same basic thing: The unknown, the source, the all encompassing. Giving it form was not only illogical, but offensive, as it negated the fact that a god cold revel themselves differently to different souls. That is at least a more organic teaching and peaceful. And it makes sense as Shankar was trying to synthesize bhuddist thought into the brahmical context. What better way to do that then to say, "hey guys, it's more about being cool and chill and not fighting. Try not to be attached to stuff to much. Be a nice person. Worship who you like. Don't attack others for believing in their thing. Focus on your thing".

Now, don't get me wrong. My favorite thing EVER, was to cook and wash dishes and perform complex puja ceremonies on the altar. I knew all the mudras and was very diligent in my 3xs/day gayatri and so forth. I memorized all the needed verses and relished the writings of bhaktivinode thakur. I was a big fan of Jiva Dharma and had my godbrothers shave my head just right. I cried every vyasa puja. My sentiments were replete with "your divine cooling rays and the shelter of your gentle lotus feet". I walked barefoot around govardhana hill and bathed at 4am in the cool kaveri/jamumana/ganjes. I spent my brahmacari years pouring cold buckets of water on my sleep little head and rushed to the temple to squeeze in my 16 rounds a day... So what went wrong? Well, for starters, it never felt real. I felt like I was trying to impose an alien culture on my mind. Many devotees would say that this is the "purification" process. But after 15 years I suddenly startled myself. I jolted to a stop and asked a simple question: What is all this? Why can't I wrap my head around it after 15 years? Why does it feel so awkward and artificial and fake? It's only fun when we're all doing it (me and my struggling vaishnava comrads). I wasn't some video game playing, second gen krishna kid. This was it for me. It was this or hell. Either a hell in this lifetime of not being in the service of the "pure vaishnavas" or a hell in Yamaraja's care... Well guess what? I'm here today to tell you it's all bullshit folks. I'm happy. Sure, I have my days and things can get rough at times. But at least it's my day to day true to life learning process. I'm forming my own ideas and trusting in concepts that are not being spoon-fed to me. I'm, ahem, using the brain between my ears. It's actually fun. It feels, shall I say, pleasant, nay, ecstatic! There is real-life, factual and evidence based things I do that are good for me and feel "right". My relation with my family is based on reality. I can speak to them about love, death, growth, happiness, anxiety, anger, etc—all form a place of genuine personal experience or progressive realization. I don't need to rely on some guru or verse to solidify my stance in life. Sometimes I can just say, " I honestly don't know", or my favorite, "I don't give a flying rats ass!". The point is, empirical evidence, or transcendental revelation—none of this is really applicable. Not because it does not make sense, but because things should be done according to ones level of experience and from a place of genuine authenticity. Honestly, what use is something is it's just going to confuse you and leave you empty handed. It's got to be in accordance with something that sinks in. Getting a bunch of drugged up hippies to believe what you are saying is not successful conversion. It's praying on the innocent.

To this day, the hare krishna are not taken seriously and pretty much struggle at every step to present their religion in a cohesive, rational and tangible way. Their repeated and futile attempts at somehow positioning "krishna consciousness" as being a historically viable religion is shrouded in desperation as they make quasi-associations to the ancient vedas that are littered with caste ideologies, fanciful worship and sacrifices of horses and humans alike along with flawed tales of the origin of species, the cosmos and so forth. They attempt to highlight science as flawed, when in fact their complete lack of viable science is what needs questioning. It's actually laughable that a group of people who cannot logically explain what shaving a head and wearing neck beads has to do with any meaningful social change and so-called spirituality should even have an opinion on the topic of science.

The classic argument of "the vedas are revealed and beyond the influence of man/sense perception" is flawed in an of itself considering we don't have much more to go on except our eyes, brains and mind to interpret them. These are the very same tools the "guru" and "saints" and compilers of the vedas had to rely on: Imperfect senses. Often blunted even further by the intoxicating "soma juice" that no doubt helped in pushing the auto-trip they were on.

It's really pointless in discussing any of this with your garden variety krishna devotee or any religion-minded person. You will be labeled a "karma", "Aparadhi", offender, lacking sukriti, lacking faith and so forth. Basically any questioning of the practices and beliefs and stories of the hare krishna is met with immediate opposition and distaste. Yet not many if any hare krishna have ever read the pagan and very tribal rig veda and other subsequent vedic works. They have barely scratched the surface of their very new version of the bhakti movement. Their reading of the purnanas and suplimentery vedic works is clouded by their gurus purports and blind loyalty. Rarely is one encouraged to question, dissect and truly study the scriptures through and through. Most of the focus is on the modern day version of the teachings with the occasional mention of the past scriptures as support for the legitimacy of the historical place of the bhakti movement. But of course this is rarely done with any convincing language other than: Chant and be happy.

We say that caste does not play a role in so-called gaudiya vashnavism yet chaitanya himself was born to a family of brahmins and accepted sanyas as a social platform for his preaching. The shikshastika verses are a cry and plea for the "lower casts". Verses like "I am not a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra. I am not a brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha or sannyasi. What am I? I am the eternal servant of the servant of the servant of Lord Krona" were a way to create social unity but it barely put a dent in the caste system that even has a hold on many indian villages to this day. So while it may have been a noble effort, the fact that it's associated with the vedas and has it's organ and history in the worship of krishna, a vedic god that spoke and ordained vranashram, according to the vedic scriptures and throughout the purnaic texts, is well, confusing and rot with double-standards.

Verses like "O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed." [Sukadeva Goswami] SB 1.1.10 give the impression that there was a time when people where somehow less so. I cannot think of a medieval story in any culture that did not revolve around warfare, destruction, pillaging, rape, sacrifices, suffering and downright bad decisions based on "gods law"—going back thousands of years. Tribes of primitive people with zero education and any true sense of human rights had a hold on many parts of the globe and india was absolutely no exception. The Indo Aryan peoples were a barbaric group that ruled by force and eventually settled down and rewrote their history in a "noble light", as most cultures try to do.

Anyway, I find it very frustrating to talk with most 2nd and 3rd gen cult kids about this stuff. They literally lack the capacity to try to see and understand that their religion and gods are mythical, like Zeus and all the rest. They fail to see the fanciful nature of the stories of their scriptures and literally believe that by chanting and hanging out at rathe yatra festivals they will somehow end of on some "transcendental planet" and play happily with krishna forever. They have fully convinced themselves and had their ability to question and find answers for themselves blunted. They consider their scriptures and the words of their very obviously flawed gurus to be "absolute truth". It blows my mind.

Most cult kids, especially in butlers cult, have never even been to india or the "holy places" of their chosen path. To them it's truly this fantastical, magical land where cows are giving rivers of milk and the dust is singing the glories of god... Many krishna cults in the west set up shop in places like hawaii and mexico and warm climates where people live simple lives and are receptive to the yoga and chanting and free food culture that the cults promote. Preaching going on in places like Russia and China are ripe for the taking. People have been prosecuted for so long for their beliefs that anything that promises a better, less oppressed life is viewed as heaven-sent. As soon as laws free up religion in these countries there is a line of gurus ready to take the masses for a transcendental ride.

When I was a child and my mother, who grew up in communist poland and was going through a rough patch where-in she was suffering and becoming disillusioned with life in the west, was approached by a butler disciple, one vishnu das. Meditation, vegetarianism, the promise of peace of mind by chanting mantras and serving a guru who was god on earth was a pleasant sounding prospect. Escapism at its finest no doubt. We quickly started reading gita, set up our little altar with deities and chanted to our hearts content. Then, as years passed we eventually left butler for a more traditional krishna guru in hawaii. We became disciples and dressed in dhotis/saris, wore a sikhs, got the thread and I became a pujari at the temple. Overtime, we made acquaintances with other gurus and groups. As time went on, it became apparent that these gurus did not like us "jumping around" from guru to guru. Words were spoken, fights were fought. Eventually my mother settled on one govinda maharaja, disciple of sridhara maharaja. This was an indian guru. The flavor of the "yoga, mantra meditation, guitar playing" cult we knew gave way to a more "authentic" expression of gaudiya vaishnavism.

Over time I saw that there was a lot of "guru appointment" issues that arose. Acharyas were now made by appointment. I was always told this was not something that can or should be done. Yet here we were, accepting this new method of guru-making. Various claims to authenticity were always highlighted. Many followers felt very firmly that their guru was the "one" true heir to the gaudiya line. Others were shown to be faulty or flawed or in someway lesser. Yet one thing remained true—wherever you went, everyone claimed to have the right guru and belong to the right clan. When issues arose disciples simply jumped to the next best one. When the guru's passed away, they appointed in some cases several gurus in their place. The gurus then fought amongst themselves or vied for a top post. This is going on all over the place. And many of these gurus will adopt some stylistic nuances: Larger sikhas, different neck beads, emphasis on service rather than rounds you chant, preaching radha bhav, gaura bhav, anti-sahajiya, etc. They all have their style and claim to fame. Some of these gurus even write their own gita commentaries and other books that promote their flavor of gaudiya ideas. They all claim that they understood it best and in the truest light. what they fail to see is that you can frame bullshit in any light you like but in the end it's still very much bullshit.

So, to recap—no, the so called chaitanya cult down to prabhupada and so forth all peddled variation of the caste tale. When convenient they adjusted their whistle, but at this point it's in black and white in the many purports, lectures and commentaries they have left behind. No going back as they say. And the bottom line is that it's not even about the caste stuff. It's the whole package: The rascal god krishna who does not follow any of the rules, the excessive sex and scientifically fallacious ideas presented in the vedic, puranic and vedantic texts, the fantastical tales that have no correlation to historical events and the contradiction after contradiction, excuses, different versions of every story from one scripture to the next, silly guru fights, disciple fanaticism and crazy rituals, habits and practices. Hogwash of the highest order and some. You can tell someone their going to go to hell and suffer lifetime after lifetime (usually starting when they are just little children) and they will believe anything. You tell someone you know what happens after they die and everyones ears perk up. It's what religion is made of. Fear masquerading as love. People are afraid of going to hell and of what comes after they die and once you have them well situated in that zone they will believe ANYTHING you feed them.

The closest thing to a true path and viable so-called spiritual tradition is perhaps buddhism and even that has sadly suffered from a heavy dose of BS. Society would do best by unlearning it's religious past, giving it up and building out a new way of understanding the evolving world around us. It's one thing to take cues from old traditions and weave an approach to life that is respectful of your fellow human and the earth, it's something very tragic to take wholesale some archaic and convoluted idealism and pretend that it can solve all of societies troubles while basically peddling the very thing that has been wrong with religion from time immemorial—a system of fear masquerading as some deeper truth or devotion.

I love these videos and others like it that claim some sort of scientific proof and end with the classic hare krishna sell: [youtu.be]

It's astounding how many videos like this abound on the internet. Videos claiming that nuclear weapons were being used in ancient india and that flying saucers and what not were somehow a daily occurrence in vedic times. Even the fairly recent dwarka discovery which clearly amounted to nothing mire than what appeared to be natural formations and a piece of drift wood dated to 7500 years ago (way before the time of the so-called krishna avatar)... it's all so silly and pathetic in it's naivety and lack of dignity.


There is much to be learned and applied from india's philosophical texts and scientific ideas—all of which may have been mentioned and contained truths and theories. This, however, does not make the various stories factual. Also, many facts and reference points in the claims here are not substantiated or even mildly agreed upon in most educated circles. At best, india's cultural history encompasses a large body of knowledge. That specific stories in the upanishads and other vedic texts somehow allude to a specific god or pantheon is utter non-sense. Many gods were worshipped. Eventually a monotheistic idea developed but at no time was the predominant consensus that krishna or chaitanya or any of the so-called vedic deities considered supreme (the original 24 avatars were conveniently narrowed down to 10 with barely a chapter dedicated to any of them). The so called hindu religion spans many ideas and ideologies—most were completely devoid of gods and focused on nature and natural sciences and more humanistic concerns. The fantastical notion that harnessing nuclear energy was somehow present during vedic times is utter non-sense with no proof. There is barely any consistent proof of the wars and dynasties of the so-called vedic period. Let alone proof of the existence of krishna and rama and many vedic characters. None. Coins of characters holding clubs and disks and archeological scattered objects with symbols popular in use at the time are not proof. That's called art people. Humans have been drawing animals and god-like figures on caves, then on potery and temple and castle walls for thousands of years. The egyptians had complex art on their temples and structures. Are we to immediately say that Ra, Osiris and Seth are real beings? How about Zeus and Athena? To recognize india as a valuable world culture is obvious and it's contributions are wonderful (not a big fan of raga music and repetitive chanting myself, but I get that it was a complex music system based on math and the seasons etc). This is nothing to dispute and I don't think any sane person will argue that India is rich in its history. Can't say modern india is much of a thing to write home about, but sure, it's history is profound.

It just seems silly to make the mental leap that just because something contained a few highlights and truths, that all of it was perfect or scientifically correct. That a few great minds found the gita or various upanishads and puranas a facitnating read does not make them guide books for what to worship and believe in. Early vedantic thought and many philosophical schools of india made it a point to not be preachy and not focus so much on the stories and tales—but rather use reason and logic to suss out what is beneficial knowledge for human conduct and social welfare. Unfortunately, philosophy is not for everyone, and so cheap stories and tales are what most people feel comfortable believing.

I find it irresponsible that so much energy is vested into basically tooting india's horn and really coming off as a nationalist and patriotic venture rather than a truly scientific one. If someone finds inspiration in the vedic texts (the 4 primary vedic texts are just hymns to nature gods—doubt that it really is relevant to modern people), or enjoys the stories of the upanishads and puranas and so forth—that's great. Obviously take it with a grain of salt. There are many people out there who will feed you a line and try to convince you that Hinduism is some sort of non-religion or a "path for all mankind" or universal etc. This is far form the truth and most of the time the people telling you this are actually cults and groups with very specific agendas and ideas about the vedic texts. They are not culturally hindu, so they come at it from either the ISKCON angle or some off shoot of that or other popular so-called hindu groups that attract mostly western practitioners who are attracted to the mystical and slightly evolved concepts compared to abrahamic religions. They are by far not representative of actual vedic culture or society. Many of these western guru's usually have ashrams in some tropical climates and run sudo-spiritual programs that attract youth and hippies/new-agers. Rarely are they attracting intelligent seekers and those who want to question and better understand the true Indian philosophical texts and concepts.

Cheap associations like the iron columns and so-called discovery of the sunken dwarka forts/ports are not symbolic of the day to day Hinduism that exists in India. Go to india. See it for yourself. There is little in the way of a spiritual culture that has universal appeal or practical application for the common person. No one is going to sit around and chant mantras all day. Even the deities and various temples dedicated to the deities are at best an acquired taste. Many of them are bizarre, have odd, fantastical tales woven around them and much of the "hinduism" we know in the west is not practiced at all in most of india (people don't really do asana-based yoga, they don't study the scriptures in any depth, they sure as heck don't chant 16 rounds a day—that is not what hinduism means to most hindus). Things like yoga (i.e. stretching and breathing) as well as chanting of simple mantras like hare krishna or elegant and elaborate temples with clean interiors and in general clean access to bathrooms and peaceful people in meditative states are NOT what you will see in india. People are just living their lives and believing in their gods and gurus never questioning or trying to understand more. In general there is a lot of cheesy expressions of the religion on billboards, in temples and most cities. In the west we try to portray this intellectual high-end scientific universal path called "Sanatana Dharma". But that is not what you see in india—at all. And it's very suspect and arguable that there was ever a so-called zenith of vedic culture (the closest thing to it was a primarily buddhist empire and samkhya being taught as a universal world view). More likely this only comes through in the ramayana tales and mahabharat fables as a cool story to create allegiance and a sense of belonging. A national tale of success and power. Were there great capitals and amazing cultural centers in ancient india? Sure, but nothing as evolved and amazing as say, modern day New York city or even ancient rome. There is no proof of it and there is no real current expression of it that hints at it having much in the way of influence in india today. You can barely find a bathroom in most of india and it's a run down country with many superstitions and failed social systems—it was even worse before the british and one can only use their imagination the further back you go. There was obviously many seats of power and cultural development in parts of india. But it was not a collective thing. Kings throughout history liked to feel proud and they often had poets and writers compose stories to solidify their claim and contributions to society. These thinkers and poets stumbled upon concepts and ideas that they later formed into schools of thought and various systems of knowledge. This was not something specific to india. In fact, if anything, india lacked a written language for so long that much of it's even more recent history was crudely recorded. Stories of various dynasties were exaggerated and fabricated to facilitate the spread and propaganda of various empires and their governing systems (caste being a very big one).

What really gets my goat here is the variety of ancient and modern indian cultural contributions is somehow being brought to the foreground as support for chanting hare krishna. That's ludicrous. It's like describing ancient egyptian, chinese or roman cultures and their historical contributions to science, philosophy and spirituality and then making the leap that we need to somehow see that as a sign that some fringe song or mantra in their ancient books holds the key to happiness and or world peace. Please. Don't insult India's history and culture by reducing it to a fanatical cult.

I'm so tired of reading and seeing naive articles stating the discovery of some archeological site or otherwise fantastical claims of flying spaceships or nuclear weapons with vedic origin being found as proof for the existence of krishna or the superiority of the hindu religion. This is utter nonsense. Hinduism or India's cultural heritage is just that: A heritage, a culture, a fascinating country with a fascinating history (or in some cases lack there of since no records exist of many supposed events beyond the scriptures that claim them to be true that barely date back 3500 years) and much to teach the world and contribute. Nothing more and nothing less. There is no need to put india on a pedestal over any other country nor it's so called claim on spirituality. Great art, music, philosophy, religion, architecture, scientific works, stories and political/social contributions are made by every great nation and abound throughout the world from south america to africa to europe, to china, and everything in between—small to big and many more to come.

We do however, live in a time where we have airplanes and great cities and advanced technologies and much has been discovered in terms of science, technology, industry, phycology, etc. In fact, none of the information here in the video could be possible to have had access to in bygone days. Information traveled slowly. So we now live in a time where we can condense thousands of years of india's history and even the planets evolution. And so we do not have a realistic portrait of things as far as how slowly and how far apart so many things are. We hear that some scriptures were written and they are ancient, but realistically, many of the scriptures of india were not written 5000-10000 years ago, but much much more recently. Most are traced to 2000-3500 max. After that we have little verifiable information. And rest assured—these scriptures and so-called scientific texts were revised, added to, adjusted and misinterpreted countless times by countless people—for their agendas and personal convictions. Yes, people. Not gods, not angels, not some mystic saints with elephant gods writing with broken tusks. People. Writers, poets, logicians, artists, scientists and philosophers—over the course of many hundreds and thousands of years. There was no "revealed knowledge" that vyasa just wrote down (sorry, ganesh) in one fell swoop. In fact, much of the knowledge in various shastras and supplementary vedic texts were developed right in line with and at the same time as many other scientific and philosophical discoveries and contributions were being made globally. Not just in india. Mathematical concepts, writing, architecture, art, religion, etc—many of the major discoveries in these fields of knowledge were being shared and discovered by moving tribes, shifting and conquering dynasties and eventually via the written, documented word. It seems foolish to highlight india with the singular very biased aim of having people superstitiously be convinced that chanting hare krishna is the best thing ever or has any more potency than chanting or meditating on any phrase or sound that one associates with peace and tranquility. It's also not healthy to be so preoccupied with living a life of no stress and complete mental peace. It robs us of rich experiences and the ability to grow stronger and build our own authentic and personal view of reality. Artificially imposing a framework of thought and belief simply robs our mind and dulls it of it's ability to seek and learn and question and form real ideas based in reality—not fiction.

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My credit union is still processing my claim but the assistant manager states that I should have my funds returned ($3500.00) in a few days. I did the math on the 'retreats' and I figure that Trinity et al raked in at least $400,000.00 12 people per retreat at 1500 a piece is $18,000 per retreat. 4 retreats per month is 72,000. Retreats were booked from January through August. 8 months x 72,000 is $576,000. I am saying $400,000 to account for those who did not pay 1500 per person, and to off set any of their expenses (also I think retreats began in mid-January). These guys committed fraud. They did it across state lines. I honestly at this point would like to see Trinity behind bars and Marc also. They scammed a lot of people out of hard earned money. Not only that, they disappointed those who were seeking a healing for such conditions as PTSD and by their dishonest and illegal actions heaped more suffering onto those individuals. Trinity de Guzman is a charlatan, a cheat, a huckster, a liar. He has nothing spiritual to offer anyone.

From the Facebook group Ayahuasca Healings is NOT legal

I am in contact with an ex member of the Chris Butler cult who was never told that Wai Lana and Chris Butler are married while they were in the group.

That fact is obscured from the newer cult members, this person joined on their own as an adult, recruited by a remote outpost of the cult in a foreign country. This person was heavily indoctrinated into Chris Butler worship by the cult members and their operation in the country of origin.

This person was shipped out to Kailua and agreed to work completely for free for all of Chris Butler's top businesses and projects. Everyone works for free or is booted out, they believe it is a great honor to be allowed to work directly for Chris Butler. These types of workers not only work completely for free, they are all forced to sign non disclosure agreements and are essentially indentured servants under multiple contracts and NDA's that they must sign, and are pressured to sign these on the spot without reading them.

The rules of the Krishna religion say that the guru should become a dedicated guru at some point in his life, renouncing his marriage and his worldly possessions, leading a simple life dedicated to teaching and preaching.

This is what my friend ex member wrote in regards to figuring out that Chris Butler was married to Wai Lana

Yes, they don't tell anyone, you have to figure it out on your own. Once you get deeper into the group, and are given more "service" (unpaid work for the various money-making projects) then you eventually gather enough info to deduce their relationship. So, once you figure it out, you are so deeply involved and committed that they can be sure you will just accept it without too much questioning. When I figured it out, I was a bit surprised, and asked why he was married. I got chastised for asking, and was harshly told that he can do whatever he wants, he has a reason for everything he does, and not to doubt his decisions. Now I realize how bogus it all is, from being told that reasoning to the fact that he asked her first husband, Syamasundar das from England to divorce her so that he could marry her.

Dylan Guss now claims that the Lewis county prosecuter's office "gave their approval". before Ayahuasca Healings operations started up in Washington state. This is not true.

What did happen is the prosecuter expressed his opinion to the media. Dylan is now using that quote and spinning it to claim the prosecuter directly approved AH.

Dylan characterizes he, Trinity, and Marc as beleaguered, misunderstood, well meaning people who have the best of intentions. And he would like us to sign up for their next amazing retreats (in Peru).

Obviously the ex member is referring to Richard Bellord as "Shyamasundar Das" but I think they got his name wrong. Though I was unaware of Richard Bellord's Krishna name, I left it in.

They mean Richard Bellord, Wai Lana's British husband.

Shyamasundar Das is Sunil Khemaney as far as I am aware. Anyone know Richard Bellord SR's initiated name?

A former member says Trinity and Marc patronized and shamed people. "They actively fostered secrecy and lack of transparency".

Marc appointed himself chief medicine man and tried to tightly regulate workers. Marc claimed that he could judge a worker's "high or low vibration" and that he would restrict their behavior accordingly. Marc expected workers to follow his 6 or 7 pages of rules.

Former workers are relating some concerning stories, yet often in the next breath they claim that everything will be fine and that Trinity and Marc aren't that bad after all.

Bhutanese monks are considered the most aggressive in trying to snag Western women for sex. Women have reported rape attempts by Bhutanense monks at Bodh Gaya, and the Bhutanese "lamas" staffing Kalu Rinpoche's main center in France were fired by the young Kalu Rinpoche after he received many complaints of pressure for sex. One rape case was reported to police and the lama was jailed.

Never assume that any Asian monk is harmless; bear in mind that the Buddha faced a constant challenge in getting his monks to observe the Vinaya, even with no women present, and was very reluctant to allow women into his order, with good reason. He knew his monks. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Are Trinity and Guss aware that many places in Peru are high altitude (8,000 feet?

If their event is in such a location, are they aware that subjects could risk altitude sickness?

Some visitors might risk altitude sickness, especially if they have either a pre-existing medical condition that puts them at risk, or if are otherwise healthy but that their their bodies cannot readily adapt to high altitudes.

What likelihood is there that they have the medical training needed to
distinguish between symptoms of altitude sickness and those brought on by ayahuasca?

Here is one case that illustrates how complicated this is.

Very difficult to identify the final cause of death.

One person who participated in the discussion following the article did give
some information based on his own experimentation.

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DJ
February 8, 2015 at 9:00 AM
Having drank both tobacco and ayahuasca in Peru I perhaps could shed some light.
It’s true that in most places people tend to drink tobacco a couple days before the first ayahuasca ceremony in order to “cleanse ” the body.
I drank the tobacco with a few other guys and was pretty ill. I noticed it increased my heart rate significantly and became very hot.so perhaps the poor lady in question had some underlying undiagnosed issue.
One lady who drank it with us had a violent reaction to it which scared the hell out of everybody . The best way I could describe her reaction was that of an epileptic when in the throws of seizure.
I think I remember reading somewhere that anything up to around 20% tobacco is reasonably ok but more than this can cause serious problems.
May God rest her soul.

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Trinity de Guzman attended his first LGAT (large group awareness training) when he was 18 years old. It was a high pressure, classic, manipulative LGAT. He did other trainings too.

He claims he can "manifest" anything and that he has the best of "intentions".

He was workers listen to hours of sales instruction tapes.

Trinity, Marc, and Dylan seem to be living in their own self absorbed movie. They seem to believe they are on hero quests.

Instead of listening and considering feedback from the world, they double down on delusional. They insist they have good intentions. Dylan says nothing bad is going on, such as a scam, because of their good intentions.

I assume Trinity would say that physical constraints like elevation can be overcome with good intentions.

They are on narcissistic hero quests, the rest of us be damned. Drugs aren't helping them any.

CORBOY WROTE

Having drank both tobacco and ayahuasca in Peru I perhaps could shed some light.
It’s true that in most places people tend to drink tobacco a couple days before the first ayahuasca ceremony in order to “cleanse ” .

Actually there are various recipies of Ayahuwaska...
In Santo Daime it is only the vine and the leaf ...

But other shamanic paths use tobacos mix with the ayahuaska
i have read that there as been one death of a lady in Canada
after a ceremmony and it was due to hight level of tobacco in the brew (the autopsy reveal) Who knows who is preparing TRINITY brew and with what ingredients
I trust 100% Santo Daime but other stuff made in the jungle of Peru .who knows?

As far as LIMINAL comments
TNT Guzman and his little cult are delusional
and thinking that they can show the path to SELF REALIZATION to their followers
for a $$ fee.As the bible say ...the blind leading the blind ...they both fall in the dicth.
Anyway are there really very long term benefits in drinking Ayahuaska ?
Will the depress person ...eventually become free of depression
or will he have to drink the brew over and over again .
Dr Deepak Chopra talks about that most people have 50,000 toughts a day
and most people repeat the same toughts pattern day after day ...
Sometime I really do not see much difference in people toughts pattern after knowing them for 5 years ...and knowing they drink the brew 2 times a months
some have not improve at all and a few have become worst and cultic

Wai lana as been describe as agressive when she first came to Butler
she did not want to associate with anyone but Butler ...had eyes only for him
she went after him big time ....and she got him
she did not care about her ex one bit ...and her kids where still young
Very smart that Wai lana ...she became a TV yoga star
became a millionaire in her own right selling all kinds of stuff on line
and manage to be worship as a divine consort of Butler ...

Goddess or evil manipulator ...One must wonder ?

Wai Lana may best be described as an unintelligible cult hag.
Maybe you could also call her the puppet master and mind control handler of Chris Butler, as Chris Butler really flew off the Gaudiya Vaishnava rails when he married her.

As soon as he married her it was all about big money, big mansions, private jets, paranoia and insanity like some dumb disciples slacking off on the other side of the world meant that little Chris Butler would suffer some earth shaking illness, blaming it on the slack discipline of his disciples.

I wonder if Wai Lana is the one who turned Chris Butler into this mentally ill cult leader.