This is verbatim the conversation between myself and Canada Girl after she was contacted by Bodhayan Swami, her guru and spiritual master.
This took place on Facebook messenger approximately May 5th 2016
Bodhayan Swami must endorse the abuse that Canada girl suffered in the Chris Butler cult as he used his influence over her to shut her up and instruct her to have me remove this interview:
[soundcloud.com]
Canada Girl is initial A: I am Rama, initial R:
A: Rama, please take down our interview immediately. It had caused trouble for my spiritual master. It is not worth having up if it is causing him so much trouble.
A: Please confirm that it had been removed.
R: Could you explain what the problem is?
R: Why on earth would Bodhayan Swami want to have that taken down?
What is the trouble it caused him? Chris Butler's guys put pressure on him? Why does he care more about that than exposing what abuses are going on in Chris Butler's cult?
Why on earth would he want it taken down, because that means he is endorsing your experience and treatment as acceptable.
I think he should talk to me directly if he wants that taken down, and I think that if he wants it taken down he should provide me with a public statement as to why.
Why is he interested in protecting Chris Butler?
A: Because saintly people only see the good in others.
R: And actively seek to silence the truth coming out?
R: Why does it even concern him?
A: Please take it down.
R: No concern for my work, my time and effort, and no reason whatsoever?
R: Tell your guru or his assistant to get in touch with me
415 xxx-xxxx
(e-mail omitted but was given to Canada Girl)
R: They got to explain themselves first
R: "Only see the good in others" sorry, that's total BS. So crazy.
Why were you concerned to get your story out? To help people, right?
That brainless blanket statement does nothing but obscure abuse and corruption
R: Not good enough for me, if Bodhayan is concerned, tell him to get in touch
R: Unless he would like to be highlighted on my blog for telling you to remove your testimony
A: Yes, your time and effort are valuable, and I do appreciate that you are trying to help people. I want to help people, too, and I was ready for reprocusions. But, I wasn't expecting that my Gurudeva would contact me and be so upset.
A: I don't mind if CB and his people are upset, but I do mind if my Gurudeva is upset. Please, for my sake, take it down. Lots of people have listened, and I'm sure it has caused CB and his people lots of stress. Maybe that's good enough?
R: I'm more than happy to point it out fully, using his name and linking to any of his sites and explaining in clear detail various aspects of your story that he prefers remain hidden.
One can only conclude he is supporting all this abuse and illegitimacy that you yourself had an issue with until he ordered you to let it all go.
You had totally intact instincts to want to rectify the wrongs you know are being perpetrated in Butler's cult, I gave you all the time in the world to decide, no pressure, and you fully agreed, agreed to be recorded and agreed to let me publish it.
Now it's just a complete 180.
Look, him just telling you he's upset is enough for you, but not me.
I am guessing he didn't tell you what happened.
Either Chris Butler's guys talked to him, or Tulsi pulled rank through the ISKCON leadership and it came to him through them. I'm actually guessing that is what happened
R: Tell him I want communication from him or a public statement as to why he wants this down.
Otherwise, no way!!! I'm not operating off this level of vague authoritarianism.
That works for you guys, but not me.
To me he looks like the epitome of the ISKCON guru who doesn't dare rock the boat or take issue with any abuses in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism.
This is the whole damn problem, and the reason it takes someone like myself who has fully left the belief system behind to actually fight these guys.
Devotees should be doing this stuff, does Bodhayan not have an obligation to oppose illegitimate people ruining lives and making millions in the name of Krishna?
A: Yes, I believe that CB or his people have contacted him about it. He didn't tell me exactly. I think that because CB chants Hare Krishna, the true Vaisnavas see him as doing some good in the world, and they focus on that. They don't want to hear me finding fault with CB because he is doing some good. Yes, I did agree and allow, but now I have taken a 180 and am asking that you please take it down. I guess I didn't realize the reach it would have. It has been out there for a while, lots of important people have heard it, it had caused drama. I should back out of the fight, you should stay in it, but can you please allow me to back out by taking it down? Your time and effort are valuable, and I'm sorry to ask you to do this, but please?
R: Have him tell you AND me EXACTLY.
Have him or his assistant get in touch with me about this.
Have him write a public statement as to why he wants this interview buried.
R: Just forward what I'm saying, tell him you asked me but I'm not into it without good reason.
R: Sorry, -----------, I do understand your loyalty and devotion to him, but think about the implications of this dynamic.
This is why I really disagree with the Gaudiya Vaishnava system of the necessity of being subservient and obedient to a guru. It's so insanely dis empowering, and we are taught that these guys are literally perfect and unquestionable.
He is asking you to suspend your individuality, your intellect, your sense of standing up and opposing a nightmarish abusive scenario you endured, just because he said he has been perturbed in some undisclosed fashion.
I think Bhaktivedanta Swami was a great guy who accomplished amazing things, but ever since I broke away from CB, I never could agree he was this perfect all knowing and unquestionable guy, which is exactly how he taught everyone to treat him.
He boasted that his first wife in India was 11 years old and that "he showed her what sex was", he taught his male followers 30 years or older to get married to young girls of 14, that this was the correct way, that this is the only way you can make the wife attached and obedient to the husband.
The list goes on down the line, like teaching parents to detach from their kids and send them into gurukula hell holes.
The stories of these first waves of kids under Bhaktivedanta's direct control, the first kids into his Gurukulas are absolutely horrific. Some was not his direct fault, like pedophiles infiltrating the Gurukulas, but so much really horrible stuff was taught and condoned by him. But he knew of the sexual abuses and other abuses and kept them going, but moving them to India so they wouldn't get shut down.
American boys were sent there and brutally raped, I watched the documentary "Children of the Hare Krishna" on NBC and the guy is a grown man describing in gruesome detail the rape he endured. How it destroyed his life absolutely. Being shot up with shared needles for vaccinations etc.
Like saying we need Ksatryas to line up everyone in the world, point a gun at their heads and ask "do you believe in Krishna?" Then when they answer "No", blow their brains out.
Most this stuff was just the cultural norms of the Indian society he was from, but nobody within the movement can say that we shouldn't think of him as totally perfect, in direct communication with Krishna and every word and action is pure.
All the ugly stuff just gets buried and ignored, but never challenged and disavowed. Everyone is taught to revere him fully, and the extreme teachings are still there for the "hardcore" devotee or the "old-school" devotee.
I think he should be seen as a great guy, but understood to be human and flawed, unfortunately teaching a lot of bad stuff gleaned from Indian societal norms but it's just the times he was from.
It's kinda like your Grandpa, we can accept him but we can evolve and be better.
He taught that women "prefer a man who is expert in rape" these teachings directly lead to prominent ISKCON leaders raping young teenage girls, but the only way you ever hear this stuff is from people who left
[harekrishnacultexposed.blogspot.com]
ACB taught that black people in America were obviously better off as slaves, saying they always cause trouble now. It's still in the transcripts of ACB's talks in the ISKCON archives, all available free online.
I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs, but to show a bit how I see the movement as a whole. Maybe lending context to why I'm not thrilled to take the interview down due to pressure from CB by way of another guru who offered no transparency to his reason.
All the ISKCON info I talk about can be researched
Radhika Bianchi on YouTube is awesome
[youtu.be]
Steven Gelberg:
[surrealist.org]
Half Empty Acamana:
[halfemptyacamana.wordpress.com]
Just resources for this info. All these people were born in (Radhika) or spent decades in ISKCON.
A: To to be clear, my Gurudeva hasn't ordered me to do anything. All he requested is I distance myself from this and focus on my five children and strengthen my relationship with the Holy names of God. I know you believe in this fight and that's your path and I respect that. But it's not mine. Although you by no means owe me any favours, I would like to ask you as one human being to another please take it down. If you don't I understand but please know that the video staying up is causing me stress.
R: If you want to finish the interview and get the whole story out, I will not say anything about him.
If you don't finish the story, I'll finish it myself, and I will tell the story of Bodhayan Swami capitulating to pressure from Chris Butler and using his power over you to instruct you to be silent about the abuse you endured.
I will use your "because saintly people don't point out the faults of others" as an example of the corruption and complicity within the Hare Krishna movement to shield any and all negative practices and abuses done by any group by all the other groups because all they care is that they teach people chanting.
That is justification to condone Chris Butler's practices and I think your Gurudeva is a corrupt coward who hasn't even listened to your story.
I guarantee he ordered you to back off without listening to your recording or letting you explain everything that happened.
Meaning he doesn't care what kind of atrocities are carried out within his own religion.
It's fucking sickening and all you got is more of the same as Chris Butler, just not as weird.
A: He didn't order me to do anything other than take care of my kids and chant Hare Krishna. He didn't ask me to take it down, I am asking you to do that. I thought we had a friendly relationship and some mutual understandings, but your words above are coming across as a threat. I understand that you are pationate about this subject, but there is no need to tie me up in it any further. Be nice to me! Your harshness is not something I'm used to. Let's be friends.
R: Tell me what the problems are that the interview was causing him, I've laid out so many specific points that you completely ignore, it's so frustrating.
You are playing mental gymnastics trying to say he did not make you change from being totally willing to do this to telling me to take it down.
If this guy cares at all, have him or his representative contact me.
You just backpedal to it being your decision is an insult to my intelligence and no different than all the fucked up shit you went through in the Butler cult being okay as long as the victim is brainwashed into agreeing to it and accepting it.
R: You burying your experience will ensure countless others will unnecessarily go through it as you did, and far worse ensure tons of kids will be raised in that insane, cold and abusive system.
Bodhayan is supporting this by specifically instructing you so as the end result being you shutting your mouth and removing this interview.
He is totally complicit by using his authority to shut you up.
You can dance around the semantics but I'm not an idiot.
R: Bodhayan's actions in this particular scenario make me sick, and is the epitome of the corrupt bullshit in Hare Krishna, obscuring all abuses of the other guys, nobody does or says a thing.
Him getting you to stop is way worse than an individual deciding to remain silent
R: He is corrupt to use his influence to silence your abuse.
A: I am trying to tell you that he didn't do anything except ask me to take care of my kids and chant. I am the only one asking you to do anything.
This took place on Facebook messenger approximately May 5th 2016
Bodhayan Swami must endorse the abuse that Canada girl suffered in the Chris Butler cult as he used his influence over her to shut her up and instruct her to have me remove this interview:
[soundcloud.com]
Canada Girl is initial A: I am Rama, initial R:
A: Rama, please take down our interview immediately. It had caused trouble for my spiritual master. It is not worth having up if it is causing him so much trouble.
A: Please confirm that it had been removed.
R: Could you explain what the problem is?
R: Why on earth would Bodhayan Swami want to have that taken down?
What is the trouble it caused him? Chris Butler's guys put pressure on him? Why does he care more about that than exposing what abuses are going on in Chris Butler's cult?
Why on earth would he want it taken down, because that means he is endorsing your experience and treatment as acceptable.
I think he should talk to me directly if he wants that taken down, and I think that if he wants it taken down he should provide me with a public statement as to why.
Why is he interested in protecting Chris Butler?
A: Because saintly people only see the good in others.
R: And actively seek to silence the truth coming out?
R: Why does it even concern him?
A: Please take it down.
R: No concern for my work, my time and effort, and no reason whatsoever?
R: Tell your guru or his assistant to get in touch with me
415 xxx-xxxx
(e-mail omitted but was given to Canada Girl)
R: They got to explain themselves first
R: "Only see the good in others" sorry, that's total BS. So crazy.
Why were you concerned to get your story out? To help people, right?
That brainless blanket statement does nothing but obscure abuse and corruption
R: Not good enough for me, if Bodhayan is concerned, tell him to get in touch
R: Unless he would like to be highlighted on my blog for telling you to remove your testimony
A: Yes, your time and effort are valuable, and I do appreciate that you are trying to help people. I want to help people, too, and I was ready for reprocusions. But, I wasn't expecting that my Gurudeva would contact me and be so upset.
A: I don't mind if CB and his people are upset, but I do mind if my Gurudeva is upset. Please, for my sake, take it down. Lots of people have listened, and I'm sure it has caused CB and his people lots of stress. Maybe that's good enough?
R: I'm more than happy to point it out fully, using his name and linking to any of his sites and explaining in clear detail various aspects of your story that he prefers remain hidden.
One can only conclude he is supporting all this abuse and illegitimacy that you yourself had an issue with until he ordered you to let it all go.
You had totally intact instincts to want to rectify the wrongs you know are being perpetrated in Butler's cult, I gave you all the time in the world to decide, no pressure, and you fully agreed, agreed to be recorded and agreed to let me publish it.
Now it's just a complete 180.
Look, him just telling you he's upset is enough for you, but not me.
I am guessing he didn't tell you what happened.
Either Chris Butler's guys talked to him, or Tulsi pulled rank through the ISKCON leadership and it came to him through them. I'm actually guessing that is what happened
R: Tell him I want communication from him or a public statement as to why he wants this down.
Otherwise, no way!!! I'm not operating off this level of vague authoritarianism.
That works for you guys, but not me.
To me he looks like the epitome of the ISKCON guru who doesn't dare rock the boat or take issue with any abuses in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism.
This is the whole damn problem, and the reason it takes someone like myself who has fully left the belief system behind to actually fight these guys.
Devotees should be doing this stuff, does Bodhayan not have an obligation to oppose illegitimate people ruining lives and making millions in the name of Krishna?
A: Yes, I believe that CB or his people have contacted him about it. He didn't tell me exactly. I think that because CB chants Hare Krishna, the true Vaisnavas see him as doing some good in the world, and they focus on that. They don't want to hear me finding fault with CB because he is doing some good. Yes, I did agree and allow, but now I have taken a 180 and am asking that you please take it down. I guess I didn't realize the reach it would have. It has been out there for a while, lots of important people have heard it, it had caused drama. I should back out of the fight, you should stay in it, but can you please allow me to back out by taking it down? Your time and effort are valuable, and I'm sorry to ask you to do this, but please?
R: Have him tell you AND me EXACTLY.
Have him or his assistant get in touch with me about this.
Have him write a public statement as to why he wants this interview buried.
R: Just forward what I'm saying, tell him you asked me but I'm not into it without good reason.
R: Sorry, -----------, I do understand your loyalty and devotion to him, but think about the implications of this dynamic.
This is why I really disagree with the Gaudiya Vaishnava system of the necessity of being subservient and obedient to a guru. It's so insanely dis empowering, and we are taught that these guys are literally perfect and unquestionable.
He is asking you to suspend your individuality, your intellect, your sense of standing up and opposing a nightmarish abusive scenario you endured, just because he said he has been perturbed in some undisclosed fashion.
I think Bhaktivedanta Swami was a great guy who accomplished amazing things, but ever since I broke away from CB, I never could agree he was this perfect all knowing and unquestionable guy, which is exactly how he taught everyone to treat him.
He boasted that his first wife in India was 11 years old and that "he showed her what sex was", he taught his male followers 30 years or older to get married to young girls of 14, that this was the correct way, that this is the only way you can make the wife attached and obedient to the husband.
The list goes on down the line, like teaching parents to detach from their kids and send them into gurukula hell holes.
The stories of these first waves of kids under Bhaktivedanta's direct control, the first kids into his Gurukulas are absolutely horrific. Some was not his direct fault, like pedophiles infiltrating the Gurukulas, but so much really horrible stuff was taught and condoned by him. But he knew of the sexual abuses and other abuses and kept them going, but moving them to India so they wouldn't get shut down.
American boys were sent there and brutally raped, I watched the documentary "Children of the Hare Krishna" on NBC and the guy is a grown man describing in gruesome detail the rape he endured. How it destroyed his life absolutely. Being shot up with shared needles for vaccinations etc.
Like saying we need Ksatryas to line up everyone in the world, point a gun at their heads and ask "do you believe in Krishna?" Then when they answer "No", blow their brains out.
Most this stuff was just the cultural norms of the Indian society he was from, but nobody within the movement can say that we shouldn't think of him as totally perfect, in direct communication with Krishna and every word and action is pure.
All the ugly stuff just gets buried and ignored, but never challenged and disavowed. Everyone is taught to revere him fully, and the extreme teachings are still there for the "hardcore" devotee or the "old-school" devotee.
I think he should be seen as a great guy, but understood to be human and flawed, unfortunately teaching a lot of bad stuff gleaned from Indian societal norms but it's just the times he was from.
It's kinda like your Grandpa, we can accept him but we can evolve and be better.
He taught that women "prefer a man who is expert in rape" these teachings directly lead to prominent ISKCON leaders raping young teenage girls, but the only way you ever hear this stuff is from people who left
[harekrishnacultexposed.blogspot.com]
ACB taught that black people in America were obviously better off as slaves, saying they always cause trouble now. It's still in the transcripts of ACB's talks in the ISKCON archives, all available free online.
I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs, but to show a bit how I see the movement as a whole. Maybe lending context to why I'm not thrilled to take the interview down due to pressure from CB by way of another guru who offered no transparency to his reason.
All the ISKCON info I talk about can be researched
Radhika Bianchi on YouTube is awesome
[youtu.be]
Steven Gelberg:
[surrealist.org]
Half Empty Acamana:
[halfemptyacamana.wordpress.com]
Just resources for this info. All these people were born in (Radhika) or spent decades in ISKCON.
A: To to be clear, my Gurudeva hasn't ordered me to do anything. All he requested is I distance myself from this and focus on my five children and strengthen my relationship with the Holy names of God. I know you believe in this fight and that's your path and I respect that. But it's not mine. Although you by no means owe me any favours, I would like to ask you as one human being to another please take it down. If you don't I understand but please know that the video staying up is causing me stress.
R: If you want to finish the interview and get the whole story out, I will not say anything about him.
If you don't finish the story, I'll finish it myself, and I will tell the story of Bodhayan Swami capitulating to pressure from Chris Butler and using his power over you to instruct you to be silent about the abuse you endured.
I will use your "because saintly people don't point out the faults of others" as an example of the corruption and complicity within the Hare Krishna movement to shield any and all negative practices and abuses done by any group by all the other groups because all they care is that they teach people chanting.
That is justification to condone Chris Butler's practices and I think your Gurudeva is a corrupt coward who hasn't even listened to your story.
I guarantee he ordered you to back off without listening to your recording or letting you explain everything that happened.
Meaning he doesn't care what kind of atrocities are carried out within his own religion.
It's fucking sickening and all you got is more of the same as Chris Butler, just not as weird.
A: He didn't order me to do anything other than take care of my kids and chant Hare Krishna. He didn't ask me to take it down, I am asking you to do that. I thought we had a friendly relationship and some mutual understandings, but your words above are coming across as a threat. I understand that you are pationate about this subject, but there is no need to tie me up in it any further. Be nice to me! Your harshness is not something I'm used to. Let's be friends.
R: Tell me what the problems are that the interview was causing him, I've laid out so many specific points that you completely ignore, it's so frustrating.
You are playing mental gymnastics trying to say he did not make you change from being totally willing to do this to telling me to take it down.
If this guy cares at all, have him or his representative contact me.
You just backpedal to it being your decision is an insult to my intelligence and no different than all the fucked up shit you went through in the Butler cult being okay as long as the victim is brainwashed into agreeing to it and accepting it.
R: You burying your experience will ensure countless others will unnecessarily go through it as you did, and far worse ensure tons of kids will be raised in that insane, cold and abusive system.
Bodhayan is supporting this by specifically instructing you so as the end result being you shutting your mouth and removing this interview.
He is totally complicit by using his authority to shut you up.
You can dance around the semantics but I'm not an idiot.
R: Bodhayan's actions in this particular scenario make me sick, and is the epitome of the corrupt bullshit in Hare Krishna, obscuring all abuses of the other guys, nobody does or says a thing.
Him getting you to stop is way worse than an individual deciding to remain silent
R: He is corrupt to use his influence to silence your abuse.
A: I am trying to tell you that he didn't do anything except ask me to take care of my kids and chant. I am the only one asking you to do anything.