.Additional comments following
Feeling Frustrated and Disappointed with Shambhala's History of Sexual Misconduct
[www.reddit.com]
One response:
Feeling Frustrated and Disappointed with Shambhala's History of Sexual Misconduct
[www.reddit.com]
Quote
Dizzy_Sliptibetan 13 points 8 days ago
As an outsider to all this, I have to say that that letter is incredibly weak if it's meant to be a real and actual apology. He never even says first of all just what it is he is making an apology for. Yes, he says the women felt "harmed," and then he says he'd like to make a public apology. But he never admits to having done anything to these women. He never says exactly what it is he's apologizing for. That's weak.
And on top of that he shifts the tone in the remaining portion of the letter and turns the situation into a generalized feeling of hurt, explaining how all the members of the community should come together to heal the wounds. That's not an apology. That's deflection.
For example, he says near the end of the letter "This is not easy work, and we cannot give up on each other," as if his need to work on himself and accept his own personal responsibility for his bad actions are somehow now this big group effort that everyone shares in. That's not taking personal responsibility.
That letter isn't really an apology in my opinion.
BBBallstheravada 7 points 8 days ago
Well said.
bckids1208two3 points 8 days ago
That is exactly how I feel about it.
oliness 3 points 7 days ago
Agreed, it's like when people say they "apologize for any offense caused". That's really saying "you hyper-sensitive snowflakes need to learn to take a joke!" An apology is to say you were wrong, and admit exactly what you did wrong. Not say that you regret somebody feeling bad.
wundertunge 4 points 8 days ago
And most everyone I spoke to last night at a gathering in our local Sangha felt much the same. Incredibly disappointed. It all felt way too much like spin and Shambhalese talk for what should have been real, genuine talk. It's almost like the Sakyong forgot about the very teachings we have all been studying
kausidya 3 points 8 days ago
All this is so vague, I guess we'll see what happens. But yeah even if you have a more relaxed attitude towards sex, usually this type of thing can turn us away from institutions and that's understandable. Sakyong Mipham is a prime candidate for showing how human we humans can be, it's almost like "the universe" sets people up to be giant learning lessons for the masses.
ShortTermMemoryLoss 3 points 6 days ago
[www.reddit.com]
Marston357 3 points 8 days ago
Shambhala has always had a long history of sexual abuse, what is it about this in particular that has changed your mind?
It's important to separate the teachings from the people. Personally I would feel extremely uncomfortable around the sangha, Pema seems like a wonderful person and I'm glad she's there, but the teachings are still valuable and can be used even if the institutional practices aren't.
[–]interconnectedmoment 2 points 8 days ago
How prevalent is this across schools?
[–]Marston357 2 points 8 days ago
No idea but there are some pretty horrific stories. It's like as if outright gang rape wasn't bad enough from one successor, he was knowingly spreading HIV through unsafe acts.
[–]KimUnTeslay?na 3 points 8 days ago*
There's no gang rape that I'm aware of. Trungpa's hand-picked successor Ösel Tendzin was promiscuous with students without informing them of his HIV positive status, and one student died of AIDS, according to Wikipedia citations.
[–]interconnectedmoment 3 points 8 days ago
Holy heavens. If that's not deliberate intentional harm and suffering in intention words action I don't know what is.
[–]Marston357 1 point 7 days ago
Osel raped a man while his goons held the man down.
[–]KimUnTeslay?na 1 point 8 days ago
Rare.
[–]HalfShellivajrayana 1 point 8 days ago
Not at all rare, unfortunately.
[–]Dimethyltrypta_miner 2 points 8 days ago
Power corrupts, it doesn’t matter the situation. No man or woman (or whatever-you-like) is above falling into some evil shit when other people look to them for answers; something about that power dynamic that attracts and breeds bad behavior.
[–]bodhiquestvajrayana 1 point 8 days ago
Well the Buddha was above all that, then again he technically wasn't just a man.
[–]oliness 3 points 8 days ago
And not just the Buddha - as far as we know the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, Ajahn Brahm, etc have never abused their position. They are genuine monastics. These problems seem to have occurred in the sects which abandoned monasticism and didn't have clear rules as to what sexual behavior was acceptable.
[–]bodhiquestvajrayana 2 points 8 days ago
Good point. Further than monasticism, I think it's really a matter of being open and transparent. It's perhaps one thing if you explain from day 1 that you are not celibate, that you haven't crossed over sexual desire, that you don't have qualms about getting involved with students and that you have no intention of keeping to monogamous and committed relationships. It's something else entirely if you keep everything ambiguous and manipulate assumptions, ignorance and naivety.
[–]oliness 2 points 8 days ago
Yes, and that's seen by the number of people on these threads who mistakenly write as if Sakyong Mipham, Sogyal Rinpoche, etc were monks who had taken vows of celibacy. They had never actually vowed not to do anything they've done!
Yet there's sort of a presumed understanding that they were fully in control of their desires, and enlightened. Perhaps without keeping that ambiguous mystique up people would ask why they were leaders of their organizations and put in a guru position. The issue is not celibacy and monasticism, but putting people in guru positions who aren't advanced enough for it.
One response:
Quote
[–]MahaLudwig 1 point 6 days ago
The guru at your heart on the moon disc is perfect. If you have doubt that the gross external guru is not pure, you're not focusing on the essential point of the practice. Can you show me one person on this planet with perfect moral disciple? It's the special method that distinguishes these qualities.
[–]KimUnTeslay?na 2 points 4 days ago*
Many gurus behave themselves, and their flaws are limited to repeating themselves too much, telling jokes that aren't funny, etc. The DL advised: "Perception of faults in the guru should not cause us to feel disrespect, for by demonstrating faults to us the guru is actually showing us what we should abandon. At least, this is the most useful attitude for us to take." [info-buddhism.com]
the gross external guru is not pure, you're not focusing on the essential point of the practice.
OK, but what to focus on if the guru sexually abuses your wife or daughter, as is alleged at Rigpa and most recently at Shambala?
[andreamwinn.com]
[–]MahaLudwig 1 point 3 days ago
Generate the moon disc and keep your guru at your heart always.
[–]KimUnTeslay?na 1 point 3 days ago
So you'll sacrifice the women of your sangha at the altar of "guru devotion"?
[–]TharpaLodroshambhala 3 points 8 days ago
It doesn't matter how good or bad some other person is; it only matters how good or bad you are. Don't focus on them. Focus on yourself.
That doesn't quite work when the Shambhala vision is to create an enlightened society, and when the "other person" concerned is the person at the centre of those efforts.
[–]MahaLudwig 0 points 8 days ago
Oh, there will eventually be an enlightened society, but they're not going to called it Shambala. We're just now planting the seeds for the future harvest and benefit. Homage to Maitreya Buddha. Please come to us expediently.