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Re: Hare Krishna sects not related to Chris Butler/SOI

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dharmabum wrote:

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elievers just need to look back into the lives of Bhaktivedanta’s first disciples – Kirtananda, Hansadutta, Jayatirtha, Bhavananda, Guru Kripa, Balimardan … the criminal list goes on and on. People died under these successors, children and women were sexually and physically abused, yet they are not enough for followers nowadays to question their faith.

Drug smuggling

[www.google.com]

The Life and Tragic Death of Racer Steve Bovan
Written by Thom Taylor on May 20, 2015
Contributors: Hot Rod Archives

[www.hotrod.com]

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g racing is dangerous, but there are worse things out there—things besides a bad crash that can get you killed. Funny Car pioneer Steve Bovan couldn’t have known what dangers lay outside of drag racing, but the sensational end to his life might have been avoided had he stuck with the danger he knew, instead of the danger he couldn’t have imagined.

Bovan was a barnstorming drag racer in the 1960s and early 1970s, something most racers dreamed of doing. Who wouldn’t love to have been a touring drag racer from that golden era?

Bovan raced his Junior Stock Corvette in the early 1960s with Dick Castro, winning NHRA C/Stock in 1964. He also raced a 1956 Chevy in Modified Production, and later in 1964 he was running a Max Wedge Mopar. But he wanted something faster

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Then in 1971 Bovan sold the Camaro. He moved to less expensive Costa Mesa, California, just up the coast a few miles from Laguna Beach and started working first for a VW repair shop and then for Delthic Auto Designs, a car-customizing shop in Costa Mesa. His transition from drag racer to drug dealer must have happened around this time, because he was on probation from an Arizona conviction for selling 1,200 pounds of marijuana. “Once we heard about Bovan’s drug stuff, I could see the connection to money,” Poland says.

At this point, our story takes a detour through a dark journey stemming from drug manufacturing and distribution taking place in Orange County, California, in the 1960s and 1970s, culled from Orange County Grand Jury and Orange County Superior Court testimony, as well as Newport Beach Police Department (NBPD) and Orange County District Attorney interviews of the time. Though some or all of this seems like something out of a movie, rest assured it’s all been testified to under oath.

Delthic was one of many small companies owned by Prasadam Distributors Inc. (PDI), an amalgam of businesses purchased with cash by Joseph Shelton Davis III or “Dritavarata,” as fellow Hare Krishnas religious followers called him. His companies were donating more than $2 million to a Hare Krishna temple in Laguna Beach, according to the NBPD. (Newport Beach Police Department)

The temple, known as International Society of Krishna Consciousness, or ISKCON, was an unorthodox devotional Krishna organization loosely based on the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. The bulk of its assets came from Hindu-related products and fruit juices it sold; from a Laguna Beach restaurant called Govinda’s, a Krishna health-food restaurant; and other less conventional methods.

To the uninitiated, the image of Hare Krishna came from their ubiquitous presence in airports, where young pilgrims cloaked in robes wearing ponytails offered books, incense, and paper flowers to travelers for a donation.

This temple had an illicit drug history going back to the 1960s when Timothy Leary, the long-time proponent of the hallucinogen LSD, and the Brotherhood of Eternal Love, a gang of hippie surfers affiliated to and led by Leary who espoused a communal, free-love lifestyle based in Laguna Beach, were cooking the stuff in the Laguna Beach canyons just down the road from ISKCON. LSD was sold through the temple, it was said, because Leary liked their association with Eastern spirituality [Greg Lynd testimony to Orange County Grand Jury, 1973]. Leary would ultimately be arrested in Laguna Beach in 1968 and sentenced in March 1970 to prison for possession of marijuana, LSD, and hashish.

By the mid-1970s, ISKON’s financial portfolio ran the gamut of enterprises, with at least one revenue stream from the distribution and sale of hash oil. They used pilgrims as drug mules, smuggling “honey oil” hidden in typewriter cases from Pakistan through international airports, based on trial testimony. A $1,000 liter bottle could be sold for $11,000 in the United States—a tenfold profit. Once through customs, pilgrims would fly from Pakistan into Canada, mail their luggage and typewriter cases home, then travel back to Laguna Beach.

Though a completely different region today, back in the 1960s and early 1970s, the Middle East was a very open society, easy for carefree travelers to trek along what was called the “hippie trail,” a route running from England through Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. There were nomads on camels, scenic vistas, and travel was made easy with restaurants, cheap lodging, and Western food available all along the way.

The huge sums of cash from drug sales posed the typical problem of laundering it. Prasadam Distributors Inc. funneled ISKCON’s cash through its maze of companies in the classic money-laundering pattern. As PDI became more entrenched in the management and distribution of drugs, it even took on freelance “associates,” who gave a percentage of their profits in exchange for the front PDI afforded.

While PDI was taking in millions of dollars, its loose accounting allowed associates and small-time dealers to skim, including Bovan. He must have known the money’s source and the persistent rumor that PDI investor Alexander Kulik, a frequent visitor to PDI companies, kept more than $1 million in cash buried somewhere. Kulik was a Krishna follower and generous ISKCON donor. His “service” to them was curiously confidential, but enormously important and greatly appreciated.

Eventually, the organization realized Bovan was embezzling. Rather than confronting him directly, they chose to have someone outside take care of it. They contacted Frank Rossi, the brother-in-law of the wife of an ISKCON associate. With help from friends Anthony “Big Tony” Merone and Raymond Resco, Rossi was hired to facilitate Bovan’s quick return of the stolen money, according to Robert Emory’s testimony in court.

The United States Marshals Services newly formed Witness Protection Program had just relocated ex-mobsters Merone and Resco to Orange County after they gave testimony in New York against the mob. In exchange they got a new, clean life in California. Their lives and that of Bovan’s would soon intersect with tragic results.

Rather than resolving Bovan’s embezzling, they muscled in on the fast cash, bringing in Merone’s son, “Little Tony,” to help “manage” PDI’s businesses, squeezing Bovan out. Bovan was surely mad about his ouster, based on what he did next. Bovan assembled former Delthic employees Stan Kieffer and Robert Shea to help hatch a plan. Kieffer and Shea should have known better, having recently been roughed up by Rossi and ISKCON thugs over skimming suspicions themselves, from Newport Police interviews with a confidential informant identified only as “CI.”

Their plan was put on hold when the Huntington Beach Police Department arrested Bovan for drug possession with intent to sell. It wasn’t until August 1977 when Bovan was released and their plan could be hatched.

Bovan rigged Kulik’s car to run out of gas one night, where he waited with a .45-caliber automatic pistol to kidnap Kulik at gunpoint. Bovan shoved him into the back of a pickup, and with Kieffer driving, Bovan and a bound Kulik rode together in the small camper. Bovan tried to coax the location of Kulik’s cool cash with the butt of his loaded pistol. He denied he had a cash stash, but offered up $100,000 in a safe at PDI.

The next day, following instructions the kidnappers gave by phone, three cars were dispatched to the lookout on Interstate 5 just outside of San Clemente, California. Accompanying Big Tony was PDI’s Joe Fedorowski, known as “Gupta,” and Rossi in one car, Little Tony and Resco in the second car, and Joe Davis and another East Coast associate of the Merones named Jerry Fiori. En route, Little Tony and Resco helped themselves to an estimated $70,000 of the $100,000, assuming the kidnappers would not notice until after releasing Kulik.

When the rescuers pulled into the lookout parking lot and saw the pickup, out popped Bovan swinging his .45, crazy with rage, yelling and screaming at Rossi. One car in the trio blocked the exit while Bovan was calmed down and the cash could be laid on the truck’s seat. Then the kidnappers tried to leave without giving up Kulik. Rossi got out of his car and screamed at the truck to release Kulik or no one was leaving. As the kidnappers sped away, Kulik was kicked out the back, blindfolded with his hands taped behind his back. A car with Big Tony, Fiori, and Davis followed them down the interstate toward San Diego, where a cops-and-robbers-type running gun battle exploded.

Somehow the kidnappers successfully outran the gun-waving mobsters. No one was injured in the back-and-forth exchange of gunfire, according to trial testimony by Kieffer. Now Kulik and the ISKCON heads plotted their next move. Hoping to get revenge and eliminate three embezzlers in a single act, they offered Big Tony and Resco a $125,000 contract for the murder of Bovan, Kieffer, and Shea.

The plan was to capture the kidnappers and then kill them by injecting them with pure heroin, making it look like an overdose. Big Tony and his associates staked out Bovan’s home for weeks and just missed Kieffer and Shea, who were spotted by lookouts in a free food line at a Krishna temple in San Diego. Yet the kidnappers managed to elude their capture for more than a month.

Big Tony spread the word he would pay $1,200 to anyone who saw Bovan, according to testimony from Frank Rossi’s brother-in-law, Rick Willis. Finally, in the early misty morning hours of October 22, 1977, Bovan was seen at the bar of a Mexican restaurant in Newport Beach. Big Tony, Resco, and Fiori sped to the restaurant to complete their job...

For the rest of the article, read here:

Teachings Tulsi Gabbard's guru learned from Prabhupada

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Here is what Tulsi Gabbard's guru and her parents' guru learned from Chris Butler, who in turn learned this from Srila Prabhupada, founder of International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

This might give some insights into the long term pitfalls for converts to Krishna bhakti teachings who were acculturated in societies which equate God with moral guidelines, rather than a God who is amoral.

There is this pp 50

"The main philosophical weaknesses of Hare Krishna teachings spring from their inadequate view of God.

On the next page, 51 there is this:

[books.google.com]

"They ascribe definite personality to the supreme God, but deny definite moral character to him. Consequently, the whole system becomes amoral. Then to bring in morality, they have to assume an independant moral law, karma. But it results in various inconsistencies.

"We have noted in their teaching that God is supreme cheater as well. He is not always honest and reliable. He can take incarnation as Buddha and deceive people.

"This also becomes evident from the contention of Prabhupada, "in transcendance, notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence." It is not surprising therefore to know that ISKON holds that "the yogi should be able when the occasion arises to reject even moral behavior to do what is necessary to serve Krishna."

"A devotee in other words, can commit any evil because no action done for Krishna has any bad reaction."

Godmen in Modern India also supplied some background information on Chris Butler's guru, Srila Prabhupada.

The legend about Prabhupada is that he arrived penniless in the USA.

In Modern Godmen in India: A Sociological Appraisal, the authors state that Prabhupada did have a patron in India.

[books.google.com]

The original context of sankirtan and how ISKON changed the interpretation.

[books.google.com]

Swearing an oath on the Bhagavad Gita is not the same as swearing an oath on the Pentateuch, Bible, or Koran.

In old Hinduist India, there was no oath taking ceremony taken by holding one's hand upon a book, for no one book equated with the Hinduisms. Lower caste persons were forbidden to touch anything, including books, that belonged to the upper castes!

Equating one book as exemplifying all of "Hinduism" originated with Westerners, who were eager to find one user friendly book which they could regard as analogous to the Bible.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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Speaking of the other wonderful Hare Krishna gurus, Canada Girl, the ex Butler cult slave switched to the guru Bodhayan Swami, an Indian Hare Krishna guru.

Canada Girl was 100% dedicated to telling her story and getting it out for months leading up to us finally recording part of her story

https://soundcloud.com/chrisbutlercult/ex-chris-butler-cult-member-speaks-out-part-1

Here is a verbatim copy and paste of Canada Girl's sudden change of attitude after her corrupt guru Bodhayan Swami contacted her personally.

[docs.google.com]

Bodhayan Swami capitulates to cult leader Chris Butler and endorses abuse and subjugation for capital gain and mind control.

As long as the arch criminal mastermind and abuser Chris Butler throws a little Hare Krishna in the mix, Bodhayan Swami supports him and his abuses.

Bodhayan Swami is just another cult leader in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition of cult leaders subjugating as many peons as they can.

Hare Krishna!

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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This is verbatim the conversation between myself and Canada Girl after she was contacted by Bodhayan Swami, her guru and spiritual master.

This took place on Facebook messenger approximately May 5th 2016

Bodhayan Swami must endorse the abuse that Canada girl suffered in the Chris Butler cult as he used his influence over her to shut her up and instruct her to have me remove this interview:

[soundcloud.com]

Canada Girl is initial A: I am Rama, initial R:


A: Rama, please take down our interview immediately. It had caused trouble for my spiritual master. It is not worth having up if it is causing him so much trouble.

A: Please confirm that it had been removed.

R: Could you explain what the problem is?

R: Why on earth would Bodhayan Swami want to have that taken down?

What is the trouble it caused him? Chris Butler's guys put pressure on him? Why does he care more about that than exposing what abuses are going on in Chris Butler's cult?

Why on earth would he want it taken down, because that means he is endorsing your experience and treatment as acceptable.

I think he should talk to me directly if he wants that taken down, and I think that if he wants it taken down he should provide me with a public statement as to why.

Why is he interested in protecting Chris Butler?

A: Because saintly people only see the good in others.

R: And actively seek to silence the truth coming out?

R: Why does it even concern him?

A: Please take it down.

R: No concern for my work, my time and effort, and no reason whatsoever?

R: Tell your guru or his assistant to get in touch with me

415 xxx-xxxx
(e-mail omitted but was given to Canada Girl)

R: They got to explain themselves first

R: "Only see the good in others" sorry, that's total BS. So crazy.

Why were you concerned to get your story out? To help people, right?

That brainless blanket statement does nothing but obscure abuse and corruption

R: Not good enough for me, if Bodhayan is concerned, tell him to get in touch

R: Unless he would like to be highlighted on my blog for telling you to remove your testimony

A: Yes, your time and effort are valuable, and I do appreciate that you are trying to help people. I want to help people, too, and I was ready for reprocusions. But, I wasn't expecting that my Gurudeva would contact me and be so upset.

A: I don't mind if CB and his people are upset, but I do mind if my Gurudeva is upset. Please, for my sake, take it down. Lots of people have listened, and I'm sure it has caused CB and his people lots of stress. Maybe that's good enough?

R: I'm more than happy to point it out fully, using his name and linking to any of his sites and explaining in clear detail various aspects of your story that he prefers remain hidden.

One can only conclude he is supporting all this abuse and illegitimacy that you yourself had an issue with until he ordered you to let it all go.

You had totally intact instincts to want to rectify the wrongs you know are being perpetrated in Butler's cult, I gave you all the time in the world to decide, no pressure, and you fully agreed, agreed to be recorded and agreed to let me publish it.

Now it's just a complete 180.

Look, him just telling you he's upset is enough for you, but not me.

I am guessing he didn't tell you what happened.

Either Chris Butler's guys talked to him, or Tulsi pulled rank through the ISKCON leadership and it came to him through them. I'm actually guessing that is what happened

R: Tell him I want communication from him or a public statement as to why he wants this down.

Otherwise, no way!!! I'm not operating off this level of vague authoritarianism.

That works for you guys, but not me.

To me he looks like the epitome of the ISKCON guru who doesn't dare rock the boat or take issue with any abuses in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism.

This is the whole damn problem, and the reason it takes someone like myself who has fully left the belief system behind to actually fight these guys.

Devotees should be doing this stuff, does Bodhayan not have an obligation to oppose illegitimate people ruining lives and making millions in the name of Krishna?

A: Yes, I believe that CB or his people have contacted him about it. He didn't tell me exactly. I think that because CB chants Hare Krishna, the true Vaisnavas see him as doing some good in the world, and they focus on that. They don't want to hear me finding fault with CB because he is doing some good. Yes, I did agree and allow, but now I have taken a 180 and am asking that you please take it down. I guess I didn't realize the reach it would have. It has been out there for a while, lots of important people have heard it, it had caused drama. I should back out of the fight, you should stay in it, but can you please allow me to back out by taking it down? Your time and effort are valuable, and I'm sorry to ask you to do this, but please?

R: Have him tell you AND me EXACTLY.

Have him or his assistant get in touch with me about this.

Have him write a public statement as to why he wants this interview buried.

R: Just forward what I'm saying, tell him you asked me but I'm not into it without good reason.

R: Sorry, -----------, I do understand your loyalty and devotion to him, but think about the implications of this dynamic.

This is why I really disagree with the Gaudiya Vaishnava system of the necessity of being subservient and obedient to a guru. It's so insanely dis empowering, and we are taught that these guys are literally perfect and unquestionable.

He is asking you to suspend your individuality, your intellect, your sense of standing up and opposing a nightmarish abusive scenario you endured, just because he said he has been perturbed in some undisclosed fashion.

I think Bhaktivedanta Swami was a great guy who accomplished amazing things, but ever since I broke away from CB, I never could agree he was this perfect all knowing and unquestionable guy, which is exactly how he taught everyone to treat him.

He boasted that his first wife in India was 11 years old and that "he showed her what sex was", he taught his male followers 30 years or older to get married to young girls of 14, that this was the correct way, that this is the only way you can make the wife attached and obedient to the husband.

The list goes on down the line, like teaching parents to detach from their kids and send them into gurukula hell holes.

The stories of these first waves of kids under Bhaktivedanta's direct control, the first kids into his Gurukulas are absolutely horrific. Some was not his direct fault, like pedophiles infiltrating the Gurukulas, but so much really horrible stuff was taught and condoned by him. But he knew of the sexual abuses and other abuses and kept them going, but moving them to India so they wouldn't get shut down.

American boys were sent there and brutally raped, I watched the documentary "Children of the Hare Krishna" on NBC and the guy is a grown man describing in gruesome detail the rape he endured. How it destroyed his life absolutely. Being shot up with shared needles for vaccinations etc.

Like saying we need Ksatryas to line up everyone in the world, point a gun at their heads and ask "do you believe in Krishna?" Then when they answer "No", blow their brains out.

Most this stuff was just the cultural norms of the Indian society he was from, but nobody within the movement can say that we shouldn't think of him as totally perfect, in direct communication with Krishna and every word and action is pure.

All the ugly stuff just gets buried and ignored, but never challenged and disavowed. Everyone is taught to revere him fully, and the extreme teachings are still there for the "hardcore" devotee or the "old-school" devotee.

I think he should be seen as a great guy, but understood to be human and flawed, unfortunately teaching a lot of bad stuff gleaned from Indian societal norms but it's just the times he was from.

It's kinda like your Grandpa, we can accept him but we can evolve and be better.

He taught that women "prefer a man who is expert in rape" these teachings directly lead to prominent ISKCON leaders raping young teenage girls, but the only way you ever hear this stuff is from people who left

[harekrishnacultexposed.blogspot.com]


ACB taught that black people in America were obviously better off as slaves, saying they always cause trouble now. It's still in the transcripts of ACB's talks in the ISKCON archives, all available free online.

I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs, but to show a bit how I see the movement as a whole. Maybe lending context to why I'm not thrilled to take the interview down due to pressure from CB by way of another guru who offered no transparency to his reason.

All the ISKCON info I talk about can be researched

Radhika Bianchi on YouTube is awesome

[youtu.be]

Steven Gelberg:

[surrealist.org]

Half Empty Acamana:

[halfemptyacamana.wordpress.com]

Just resources for this info. All these people were born in (Radhika) or spent decades in ISKCON.

A: To to be clear, my Gurudeva hasn't ordered me to do anything. All he requested is I distance myself from this and focus on my five children and strengthen my relationship with the Holy names of God. I know you believe in this fight and that's your path and I respect that. But it's not mine. Although you by no means owe me any favours, I would like to ask you as one human being to another please take it down. If you don't I understand but please know that the video staying up is causing me stress.

R: If you want to finish the interview and get the whole story out, I will not say anything about him.

If you don't finish the story, I'll finish it myself, and I will tell the story of Bodhayan Swami capitulating to pressure from Chris Butler and using his power over you to instruct you to be silent about the abuse you endured.

I will use your "because saintly people don't point out the faults of others" as an example of the corruption and complicity within the Hare Krishna movement to shield any and all negative practices and abuses done by any group by all the other groups because all they care is that they teach people chanting.

That is justification to condone Chris Butler's practices and I think your Gurudeva is a corrupt coward who hasn't even listened to your story.

I guarantee he ordered you to back off without listening to your recording or letting you explain everything that happened.

Meaning he doesn't care what kind of atrocities are carried out within his own religion.

It's fucking sickening and all you got is more of the same as Chris Butler, just not as weird.

A: He didn't order me to do anything other than take care of my kids and chant Hare Krishna. He didn't ask me to take it down, I am asking you to do that. I thought we had a friendly relationship and some mutual understandings, but your words above are coming across as a threat. I understand that you are pationate about this subject, but there is no need to tie me up in it any further. Be nice to me! Your harshness is not something I'm used to. Let's be friends.

R: Tell me what the problems are that the interview was causing him, I've laid out so many specific points that you completely ignore, it's so frustrating.

You are playing mental gymnastics trying to say he did not make you change from being totally willing to do this to telling me to take it down.

If this guy cares at all, have him or his representative contact me.

You just backpedal to it being your decision is an insult to my intelligence and no different than all the fucked up shit you went through in the Butler cult being okay as long as the victim is brainwashed into agreeing to it and accepting it.

R: You burying your experience will ensure countless others will unnecessarily go through it as you did, and far worse ensure tons of kids will be raised in that insane, cold and abusive system.

Bodhayan is supporting this by specifically instructing you so as the end result being you shutting your mouth and removing this interview.

He is totally complicit by using his authority to shut you up.

You can dance around the semantics but I'm not an idiot.

R: Bodhayan's actions in this particular scenario make me sick, and is the epitome of the corrupt bullshit in Hare Krishna, obscuring all abuses of the other guys, nobody does or says a thing.

Him getting you to stop is way worse than an individual deciding to remain silent

R: He is corrupt to use his influence to silence your abuse.

A: I am trying to tell you that he didn't do anything except ask me to take care of my kids and chant. I am the only one asking you to do anything.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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Get back in the kitchen, Woman!

Shut your mouth and look after your kids. Chris Butler, my Godbrother, can do whatever the hell he pleases, as long as he is giving people Krishna as well.

The disgusting complicity within the Hare Krishna movement to shield abuse and suppress information is alive and well

Jaya Gurudeva!

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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I do like how he appears to have penises painted down his arms.

Sick tats, bro!

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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From Corboy's above post:

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"This also becomes evident from the contention of Prabhupada, "in transcendance, notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence." It is not surprising therefore to know that ISKON holds that "the yogi should be able when the occasion arises to reject even moral behavior to do what is necessary to serve Krishna." "A devotee in other words, can commit any evil because no action done for Krishna has any bad reaction."

Exactly, and we see a perfect example of this in Bodhayan Swami defending and obscuring Chris Butler's abuses by silencing his disciple (read: his property and his responsibility, Canada Girl has agreed to follow Bodhayan's direction. He directs her life, you hear her say it herself in our interview.)

Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

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The Chronicle posted an article, Mineral 'Church' Seeks Exception from DEA, County Approval. Seems like now Marc Shackman and the bunch want fix their mess ups and make people believe they are on the up and up.

Prabhupada "Later, when we are more powerful"

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Additional citations for Prabhupada's statement that "in transcendance, notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence."

[www.google.com]

The Ecstacy of Madhavendra Puri

by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada
Jun 1, 1973 | A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada's Lectures, Volume-01 Number- 56

[www.backtogodhead.in]

Quote


The Deity Gopinatha is notorious as a thief because He once stole condensed milk for the sake of His beloved devotee. In the transcendental relationship between the Absolute Godhead and His devotees, both the devotees and God Himself take the risk of serving each other at all costs. In transcendence, therefore, notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence.

The story behind Gopinatha's being notorious as Ksiracora ("the milk thief") was long before narrated to Lord Caitanya by His spiritual master, Isvara Puri, and the Lord wanted to repeat the story to His followers.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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The Hare Krishna movement also insists that in order to establish a proper relationship with Krishna it is absolutely imperative to accept for oneself a guru. The devotee’s initiation implies that he accepts the guru as his spiritual master and agrees to worship him as God; on the guru’s side it means that he takes on the karma, or sinful deeds, of his disciples on himself. P. 50
Modern Godmen in India: A Sociological Appraisal, Volume 1
By Uday Mehta, Akshayakumar Ramanlal Desai

R: Why is he interested in protecting Chris Butler?

A: Because saintly people only see the good in others.

I am trying to tell you that he didn't do anything except ask me to take care of my kids and chant. I am the only one asking you to do anything.

Sounds like a threat to me, Hare Krishna style.

There are many cases like Canada Girl that authorities should start looking into seriously about religious cults’ diabolical power over followers.

This is 2016. Free Speech will stay an integral part of globalization; that will not go away. What will go away are vestiges of the past like unquestioned truth, bigotry, domination, exploitation, inequality and other manipulative practices that unfortunately are religious by nature. If you’re on the side of truth, you have nothing to fear, but if you propagate questionable practices and ideology, be ready to get challenged and defend them the most rational way. Not only you’ll be questioned on the world stage, the audience is global and transcript is permanent.

Gone are the days when the indefensible can get a pass as an arcane precept of religion.

There’s just too much victimization that society keeps failing to address; thanks to the Internet, cases are well documented and access is convenient and free. If you’re a Hare Krishna guru, chances are not as good that you’ll be seen as a good guy as compared to a few decades ago.

For Bodhayan Swami:
To capitulate to and endorse an utterly evil practice of godbrother Jagad Screwball purely because of religious affiliation you will be hounded by truthseekers relentlessly. A guru is not as hallowed anymore as offending decency nowadays. If you choose to cling to a dying tradition, the free world does not effing care. There may still be people who believe in guru’s infallibility, but the free world rules. If you don’t side with free speech, go sink like a stone. Your time is long gone.

This stuff tears me to pieces; a lot of people had gone the same situation as Canada Girl. Unfortunately, the laws and the social services would not care to listen; anything that involves religious groups, the system would rather stay away, unless there are physical bruises. They fail to understand that the stress and psychological bruises are 100 times more, especially with children.

It’s obvious, Canada Girl suffers from “Battered Wife Syndrome”. The fact that she switches from one guru to another is a clear sign.

Gurus are egomaniacs. I pray, Canada Girl and her five children are safe.

Butler's guru, Prabhupada and rejection of moral behavior

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To make sure of sources, I checked to find the origin of the quotation attributed to Prabhupada, Chris Butler's guru.

According to Ninan, in Developments in Hinduism, page 51, Srila Prabhupada said
"in transcendance notoriousness has the same absolute connotation as eminence" is quoted in primary sources - including Prabhupada's own magazine, Back to Godhead.

--this statement by Prabhupada is to be found in other sources.

However, the next clause Ninan attributes to Prabhupada " It is not surprising therefore to know that ISKON holds that "the yogi should be able when the occasion arises to reject even moral behavior to do what is necessary to serve Krishna." -- here is the primary sources for this statement - again, Prabhupada in his own Back to Godhead magazine.

[www.backtogodhead.in]

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Now, Arjuna was asked by Krsna to kill, but that was an extraordinary circumstance. Since the Supreme Personality of Godhead was personally present on the battlefield, all who died there in His presence were liberated from the material world. So there is no question of violence. Krsna gave them the greatest gift.

Nonviolence, as also humility, tolerance, etc., is not meant to be taken as an isolated aspect of moral behavior. It is one facet of a transcendental process of purification from material contamination. Part of that material contamination is the mode of goodness; so the yogi should be able, when the occasion arises, to reject even moral behavior and do what is necessary to serve Krsna.

Devotees are usually vegetarian, but if they must eat a dog to stay alive to serve Krsna, then they will eat a dog. It is not recommended to eat dogs, however, and similarly it is not recommended to be violent in a bodily sense.

Actually it is possible to become completely liberated from attachment to sense gratification only after the point of being elevated to the material mode of goodness. Suta Gosvami says in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, "As soon as loving service is irrevocably fixed in one's heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from one's heart, and one becomes fixed in the mode of goodness which makes him completely happy.

"Like a king visiting a penitentiary"

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Srila Prabhupada clarifies this in The Bhagavad-gita As It Is: "To pursue the transcendental path is more or less to declare war on illusory energy."
Krsna is supremely destructive. In His form as material time, He is killing millions of bodies daily. But that is all part of our desire; and part of His subsequent plan is to show us that real enjoyment is enjoyment according to His desire, not according to our plan for satisfying a miserable material body. So in the end, Krsna's activities are all nonviolent because His only purpose is to give peace. (The only place where there is no war is in the spiritual sky, where Krsna has His abode.)
We must declare war on maya, or illusion, and on her influence over our activities, if we are to become purified. Once having attained Krsna consciousness, however, there is no more war. The pure devotee is not touched by maya. He sees how the material nature is serving Krsna nicely deluding the fallen souls again and again until they slowly learn to take shelter of the lotus feet of Krsna and become freed from maya's laws.

Our present separation from Krsna is not caused by innocence or lack of knowledge. We are aware of what we're doing. We envy Krsna. We hate Him and the thought of bowing down to Him; we want to be Krsna. We are rebellious criminals; this world is a jailhouse where we continually riot, living like dogs and hogs.
To get out, we have to listen to the spiritual master, who is sometimes compared to a king visiting a penitentiary he is not subject to its laws. But many people are trying to get out the wrong way.

Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

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jenann Wrote:
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> The Chronicle posted an article, Mineral 'Church'
> Seeks Exception from DEA, County Approval. Seems
> like now Marc Shackman and the bunch want fix
> their mess ups and make people believe they are on
> the up and up.

[m.chronline.com]

I'm glad this journalist continues to cover the story.

Lewis county will require them to come into compliance before they open as a business again.

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“There’s some hoops they’d have to jump through if they want to reopen,” said Teitzel.

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One issue that was previously brought to the attention of the county by a concerned citizen was the improper handling and serving of food to church visitors. However, the church contends that they are not out of compliance due to the fact that their food items are all obtained via donations and are then donated back to church visitors free of charge.

Other roadblocks alluded to by Shackman after the conference included general water and sanitation issues as well as wheelchair access.

This bit doesn't make sense to me:

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However, the church contends that they are not out of compliance due to the fact that their food items are all obtained via donations and are then donated back to church visitors free of charge.

This is in reference to food safety, to their group not having necessary food worker permits or handling food properly, to our state and county laws. Shackman's convoluted "donation" claims don't make sense and don't even address the actual issue.

First Ayahuasca Healings needs a federal DEA exemption. Personally, I hope they don't get one. AH is a badly run, commercial operation.

Re: Trinity de Guzman - Ayahuasca Healings (WA, USA)

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[entheonation.com]

Trinity states that a woman on their Washington state team is a nurse and psychiatrist. He is referring to Franziska Hoffmann, who is not licensed in Washington state as either a nurse or psychiatrist. Check licensing here:[fortress.wa.gov]

So even if she had the training and degrees, she is not supposed to practice in Washington state unless licensed.

Trinity de Guzman and Marc Shackman define words in their own unique ways, they use loaded language.

They both widely and badly misrepresent United States law, history, and the nation to nation status of tribal nations and USA. They make up disrespectful b.s. about tribal cultures.

Re: "Love Israel near death"

Death and Life are in the Power of the Tongue

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This situation with Canada Girl is so sad.
She's caught between doing the right thing by exposing abusive practices in a cult and wanting to lead a spiritual life. No one should have to make these choices, but it is not without precedent.

No doubt she is a good person trying to bring value to her life and others. But she is being told to not speak ill of others who are seemingly on her same spiritual path, no matter who they are or what they do. This is the method used by all religions and cults bent on covering up crimes and abuses. We know all the stories. No one religion is exempt.

There is a lot to write about the possible motives of her guru. I personally do not think they are honorable. Either that or he has been fooled or threatened by Butler. We may never know.

This incident also further validates why people wish to remain anonymous as long as the cult can pressure and threaten people.


Canada girl might find it interesting that in Jewish traditions, there are extensive spiritual, ethical, and practical laws regarding speech. The Sefer Chofetz Chaim goes into great detail about proper and improper speech. I find it quite informative. On one hand we are advised not to speak ill of any one and to give others the benefit of the doubt; on the other hand we are instructed to correct others when they are doing harm to themselves or others. It is also considered a "mitzvah" (commandment) to warn others about bad people and charlatans; but there are many caveats.

The ethical considerations are illustrated by the following quotes:

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‘”Lo telech rachil b'ameicha” 'Do not go around spreading slander among your people, but also don't stand idly by when your neighbor's life is at stake; I am ADONAI.’” –Le 19:16.

Looking down on fellow brothers and sisters is in all manners wrong. All are of the same fabric and originate from The One Infinite, Perfect Source. The idea that His children are different in any way, lacking or wealthy, is the sole cause for all division and disharmony. God is the only judge, it is useless and time consuming for a human to try and assume His role. He does not condemn, but corrects, guiding toward an enlightened future." ~ Rabbi Israel Meir Kagan, DOB 2/6/1838 in Zhetel, Poland



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The Chofetz Chaim tells us, “Come see, my brother, how carefully one has to weigh each word [before speaking negatively] when someone has wronged him, because when he speaks he stands in great danger of transgressing the sin of loshon hora (gossip). Clearly, it is regarding this that we can say, ‘Death and life are in the power of the tongue’ (Mishlei 18:21). If one will not consider carefully before he speaks exactly how he is going to present the matter, he will surely stumble, G-d forbid. For at that moment, his anger will get the better of him and it will be impossible to exercise proper caution.”

When someone, without proper forethought, tells others how someone has hurt him or is planning to hurt him, his emotions quickly override his intentions...

Once one has decided exactly what he wants to say, he should carefully examine his presentation in the light of the seven requirements of constructive speech. He should analyze each thought. Does it contain anything inflammatory? Are there any exaggerations? One should consider possible questions which the listener might ask and how to respond. One should be prepared to respond quickly, without stumbling, for once the speaker begins to stumble, it will be hard for him to regain control of the conversation—and that is when loshon hora can begin. Furthermore, if the speaker will not prepare himself well, the listener may elicit information that should not be offered.

If these precautions seem excessive, imagine the precautions a person would take if he were working in a lab where deadly viruses are studied. That is how situations involving potential loshon hora should be treated, for as Shlomo HaMelech declared: “Death and life are in the power of the tongue.”

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However, there are some situations where we are not just permitted but are obligated to speak negatively of others. Usually (if not always), this is done in the defense of innocent victims and, as you say, is based on the second half of that same verse, “…do not stand idly by the blood of your neighbor.” If Bill is a kleptomaniac, do I have the right to share this information with Tony if there’s no conceivable chance Bill will ever get near Tony’s stuff? No. But if Tony is thinking of inviting Bill to stay for the weekend, I have the responsibility to tell Tony, in order to protect him from loss.

There are many situations where this principle could come into play. The most common is when being asked about a person for a job reference or for a shidduch (a prospective match). We don’t have free rein to go around badmouthing people, but there may be pieces of information that a potential boss or spouse needs to have in order to make an informed decision. You know that Bob made his MBA in PhotoShop? If you’re his reference, you must disclose that to the interviewer. You’re aware that Susie has a husband and six kids in another state? Her fiancé deserves to know that.

There are, however, conditions to sharing the negative that must be met:

(1) You have to know that the information you’re disclosing is true; you may not embellish or exaggerate;

(2) Sharing the information has to be the only way to protect the endangered party, or to accomplish some other necessary constructive purpose;

(3) The speaker’s intention must sincerely be to protect the endangered party or to accomplish the constructive goal. (If one is sharing information about a person he doesn’t like, it can be really hard to be objective about this!);

(4) The consequences of sharing the information cannot cause undue harm to the subject (and certainly not to anyone else!). If reporting that Joe took home a ball point pen from work will get him fired, the consequences are not commensurate with the offense and one might not be permitted to disclose that information.

Of course, there’s harm and then there’s harm. “Joe took home a ball point pen from work” is very different from “Joe is hiding in the alley with a machete, waiting to chop your head off.” The immediacy of the latter is clearly much more urgent. If you feel that a situation is truly dangerous, appropriate steps must be taken. That doesn’t necessarily make it easy.

Let’s take religion out of it for a minute and use the strictly-hypothetical example of someone questioning whether or not they should call Child Protective Services on a friend or neighbor. On the one hand, you’re hesitant to call – it will destroy your relationship, you’re afraid someone’s kids might get taken away unnecessarily, etc. On the other hand, you feel compelled to call – if you don’t and something bad happens, you’ll never forgive yourself! You’ll note how this scenario is a dilemma even before we add anyone’s religious sensibilities into the equation!

If you had a calling-CPS dilemma, you might describe the situation to a friend who’s a social worker and ask for guidance. They’re the expert and you value their insight into the matter. Similarly, if you have a non-urgent disclosure dilemma ...the best course of action is to ask an expert... There are times when we may or must disclose negative information but, when we’re involved, we’re not always the best judges of those situations.

However, as we said earlier, saving someone in imminent danger takes priority. In a case of clear and present danger, appropriate protective action must be taken immediately...and we don’t hesitate to reveal negative information. If your friend’s babysitter is a convicted sex offender, say something. Your neighbor’s daughter has been set up with a known date rapist? Share that information. This is even true in spiritual matters. For example, if your cousin’s new spiritual advisor is a [cult member], tell him.

We usually keep negative information to ourselves but sometimes we must reveal it. Just as we learn when to call an ambulance (for a heart attack, not for a splinter), we have to use good judgment to evaluate when to keep quiet, when to speak up, and when to ask for guidance."

Rabbi Jack Abramowitz, JITC Educational Correspondent

I would hope that Canada Girl would consider these ideas even though they do not come from her guru or spiritual tradition. In my opinion, by her truth telling, she may have already saved many lives. To me it is more spiritual to warn a person of a pitfall than to protect the person responsible for creating the deadly hole. I know many exers who would have greatly appreciated hearing the truth about this secretive group and thus avoided lost income, decades of their life, wrecked relationships, and damaged children.

And what is this guru really asking Canada Mother to do? What example will she be giving to her children? How will her children be equipped to deal with any abuses they may witness or experience? Will they be afraid to disclose abuses to their parents? How will she be able to protect her children? Having seen the agony that their Mom has gone through by disclosing secrets, will the children needlessly suffer in silence to protect the guru/religion/? How is this even spiritual? How is it even possible that the guru implies that Canada Mother is neglecting her children!? If he encourages silence regarding crazy and abusive behaviors he is complicit. What is this teaching her children? Sadly, it is a set up to keep her and her children vulnerable.

The Power of the Spoken Word!

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Dear Readers, the last 2 pages on the Cult Forum, can be summarized with Vera City's’s last post:

"I would hope that Canada Girl would consider these ideas even though they do not come from her guru or spiritual tradition. In my opinion, by her truth telling, she may have already saved many lives.

To me it is more spiritual to warn a person of a pitfall than to protect the person responsible for creating the deadly hole.
I know many exers who would have greatly appreciated hearing the truth about this secretive group [ed note: Chris Butler’s Science of Idiocy] and thus avoided lost income, decades of their life, wrecked relationships, and damaged children."


Quote: "And what is this guru really asking Canada Mother to do? What example will she be giving to her children? How will her children be equipped to deal with any abuses they may witness or experience? Will they be afraid to disclose abuses to their parents? How will she be able to protect her children? Having seen the agony that their Mom has gone through by disclosing secrets, will the children needlessly suffer in silence to protect the guru/religion/?
How is this even spiritual? How is it even possible that the guru implies that Canada Mother is neglecting her children!? If he encourages silence regarding crazy and abusive behaviors he is complicit. What is this teaching her children? Sadly, it is a set up to keep her and her children vulnerable.” End quote.


Thank you Vera, could not have said it any better.

From the Frying Pan to the Fire

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Thank you Vox for your kind words.

I have a lot of compassion for Canada Girl and have been thinking a lot about her.
She must be going through some kind of hell right now.
I was looking forward to her advice and words of wisdom regarding how she was able to leave the cult and keep faith.

Now it appears that she may have gone from the frying pan to the fire. I wish her well and hope she sorts things out.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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Bodhayan Swami, after all what happened to Canada Girl still sees good in Jagad Screwball. How f—king saintly.

What the hell is wrong with these Hare Krishna gurus? Had they not learned from the past? They condone evil based on their dogma. Bhaktivedanta knew full well about the sexual and physical abuses going on but did not do anything about it. Bodhayan Swami is at it again, and has brought it up a notch suppressing information. That just shows nothing much has changed in ISKCON. Truth will never become important to these SICKONs.

By right, ISKCON should have been forced to pay to the last cent for the crimes they were found guilty of, especially for the sexual abuse of gurukulis (children in boarding schools). They are given a chance for a reform for paying pittance to the victims. What our polite and generous society does not understand is that the evil is deep-seeded in the dogma. The dogma is the very life of the religion. Change to a Hare Krishna means death.

Any responsible member of an open and free society must be proactive in safeguarding our society especially the less fortunate, less educated, mentally challenged and the minors from these modern predators like Bodhayan Swami, Jagad Screwball and other gurus who hide behind religious facade. When you witnessed a crime, you have a moral obligation to report it to the police. It is within Rama’s rights to hold up information regarding abuse, exploitation and possibly crime to be readily available to authority and concerned advocates. I understand Canada Girl has five kids. The transcript is crucial to their safety. If anything happens to Canada Girl and her children, the authority will find in her statement gross disregard for decency the Hare Krishna dogma ingrains in the minds of followers. In fact, the authority should not wait until something wrong happens.

I hope her story leads to more victims speaking up. I feel, like Canada Girl, these brainwashed followers are held hostaged by circumstances, by design is to keep followers ignorant, in dire and intimidated of the ruling class so servitude is sustained.

My heartfelt concern for Canada Girl and her five children. My feeling is that they’ve nowhere to go but to stay in the cult and that spirals into an endless, vicious cycle. I hope somebody from Hawaii inform social services for help. If it is adults in religion they are normally reluctant to help, but with children, they are more helpful.

It’s 2016 and religious bullying still works. Sad!

There’s an explosion of thinking out there and children in the cult are still boxed in the old myth mindset, clinging to an ancient knowledge for their existence, that at best is bronze age technology and culture. For that alone, it’s society’s moral obligation to help free these innocent minds from the elite few that uses religion to subjugate their subjects like slaves, brainwashed to stay ignorant and intolerant to not question. That is cruel and should be unacceptable in any free and open society.

Society needs more scientists, more technicians, more psychologists, writers, artists, etc., that can only come from a mind that is free. It’s an exciting time, arguably the best time ever in the history of mankind. These children should be in school. This age is especially for them and the cult children are missing the boat. They are fed lies day in, day out, like there is a powerful being out there that controls everything and interferes in our earthly affairs, and worse, to access that being is through a mere mortal that not only shit the same shit we do, but their shit is purifying as claimed.

Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity

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(Grim)

If any of these devotees is subpoenaed to give testimony under oath, the officers of the law had better be aware that a devotee's "God" is not the same as "God"
as most of us understand "God".

It is possible that in this situation, the word "God" may, through lack of precision, include two understandings of God -- GodA and GodK

GodA: the God most of us have in mind when we raise our hands and swear the oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help us God.

GodA expects us to stand by our word, even if this means risking our lives and friendships.

GodA is the one we have in mind when we read in Exodus 23, "Thou must not follow a multitude to do evil." When all your social ties tell you to do harm, GodA gives a greater perspective.

GodA is the God of the Founding Fathers, GodA who plays fair and expects us to play fair as well.

The GodA of a truth that means the same thing yesterday, today and tomorrow.

The GodA of justice and compassion, the God who tells us that "Yes" means "Yes", "No" means "No", "Thou shall not move your neighbor's boundary marker, kill, steal, swear false testimony, must not thwart justice to suit the powerful at the expense of the and that your ultimate loyalty is to telling the truth factually and that your heart is undivided.

Krishna/GodK -- The God of Prabhupada and Chris Butler and possibly the God that ISKON and Butler devotees actually swear by when holding a copy of the Bhagavad Gita.

GodK--GodK stands above the world of matter, stands above the world that GodA works in. GodK does not operate in the world of matter but regards only the Krishna cult devotee who has rejected the world.

Anyone who is not a K cult devotee is beneath GodK.

This is not the GodA of the Founding Fathers. THis is the GodK of Prabhupada and Chris Butler --and of all who take orders from them.

Officers of the law have to ask whether a Krishna devotee is swearing to tell the truth of GodA or the malleable context dependant 'truyth" of GodK, the one who
stole rice, danced with married women, and told Arjuna to do the dharma duty and kill, because in the end, death is mere illusion.

GodK plays games with human lives. The God who sees devotees as worthy and unbelievers as corrupt and part of an evil world.

GodK tells us it is OK to kill, lie and steal, if we are devoteed to Krishna
and if we have rejected the world of illusion and all the believers in it.

It is all just a game, leela.

Reject the world of illlusion, but court the citizens in that world of illusion who cast their votes.

(Ha, I actually wrote in error, "caste their votes")

Despise the unbelievers who are in the world of illusion, swear an oath in their courts to tell the truth, but smile sweetly at them, while knowing you serve GodK, not GodA, while letting the poor trusting fools assume you are praying to the same God they pray to.

It is all just GodK, Krishna's game - leela.

Do all you can to get tax exemptions so you can accumulate the money printed by that world of illusion.

It is all just GodK's, Krishna's game - leela.

To return to the story of the boy, his mother and the request for a snack,
let us take note that both a cookie and an apple could be called a snack.

But..the nutritional content of the cookie is different from the apple, making
the two quite different as snacks.

So, God, GodA, Krishna/GodK.

What's the difference in nutrition?

And..what may the difference be when swearing an oath - and canvassing for votes?

Re: CANADA GIRL INTERVIEW

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I listened to the Canada Girl interview, but maybe I did not listen attentively enough, because I do not recall any blasphemous statements that were spoken by Canada Girl. Somebody please correct me if I am mistaken?

Canada Girl simply recounted her perceived experiences of being a laundry servant/slave for the guru in question, namely Chris Butler.

Why does Chris Butler want to keep this information so secret? Is it because it sounds totally absurd and insane to have a whole house and several servants/slaves dedicated full-time to his abnormally enormous amount of laundry?

The absurd and insane protocol for avoiding the spread of germs?

Does the interview reveal that this man is obviously suffering from some insane germophobic mental disease?

And I am wondering what happens when this absurd and insane protocol is not followed? What happens to the bewildered laundry slave or cook who gets within 30 feet of a germ-laden materialistic karmi?

Seeing as how Chris Butler had an infatuation with baseball in the past, and seeing as how he now seems to have an infatuation with gangsterism (the "Ninja Gang"?), I am wondering if there is some similarity of mentality between Chris Butler and Al Capone as depicted in this horrendous clip from the movie:

[www.youtube.com]

Can the Canada Girl be sued by slimeball lawyers for simply recounting her perceived experiences within this cult? I don't think so.

Bravo to Rama for keeping this revealing interview online for public viewing.
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